Hi there,

Writing this here because I couldn't find an email address for support.

This app looked so promising. I spend over an hour with the demo. I've been using Joy2key in combination with MSFS modded controls but the idea that I could use profiles for each aircraft was very appealing.

I'm used to writing macros and using apps like TouchPortal and SimHub Dash and JoyTo Key.

I have been following the instruction manual (no clickable index, but still useful, I thought)

I bought the app, and immediately discovered that programming the ATC window didn't work. Searched the internet and found a post from the developer: "doesn't work"

Ok, disappointing but that's the way it is.

So, I move on to adding views to a hat switch. Lots and lots of different view and pan options. Tried every combination with no success. Another search of the internet. Another post from the developer: "doesn't work and never will".

With the greatest respect, this is a huge waste of time. Is there a list of common events in MSFS that don't work and never will? I understand that the developer may not want to do the work, but how about not even including the events in MSFS that don't work? How about, maybe, a disclaimer that not  ALL MSFS events can be used (as is advertised)?

I'm sure this is a wonderful application, but first impressions aren't good.

I would have written privately to the developer about this, but there are no contact details in the app or on the website.

4 hours ago, NigeUK23 said:

I would have written privately to the developer about this, but there are no contact details in the app or on the website.

Support EMail address is on the last page of the manual and in the shop(s).

4 hours ago, NigeUK23 said:

and immediately discovered that programming the ATC window didn't work

What do you mean by that? I'm not aware of any limitations regarding the ATC events. Quite the contrary, I made a freeware ATC bridge for MSFS where you can even read  the actual ATC messages from the outside in additon to operating the menu. There is an (also free) AAO WebPage and several StreamDeck profiles to that effect.

4 hours ago, NigeUK23 said:

So, I move on to adding views to a hat switch....
.
..a disclaimer that not  ALL MSFS events can be used (as is advertised

The legacy camera events are in AAO because they are still listed in the MSFS SDK. But they've indeed never worked. Maybe some day somebody will find the correct way to access them using RPN scripts, but they sure don't work as expected. Asobo have been told in the MSFS Alpha by me and other developers, and there have been countless questions about them over the years. Yet, they are still inop (they work fine in FSX and P3D). Today, MSFS uses camera variables instead of the legacy events, but the process is a lot more involved, and doesn't allow panning the camera. Most people use the variables only for switching between different views and assign the panning in the simulator itself - because that is not something that would change between different aircraft models anyway.

 

4 hours ago, NigeUK23 said:

disappointing
this is a huge waste of time
but first impressions aren't good.

Thank's for that. But - you say that you've used the DEMO - what changed? The DEMO and the retail app are identical (except for the limited run time).

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI

1 hour ago, NigeUK23 said:

Lots and lots of different view and pan options.

Here is a script package that you can import into AAO. It contains the RPN code to switch to most of the common camera views using MSFS's camera variables.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/09kkhvs3tkqexvzuvjk47/CameraScripts.xml?rlkey=9mamvnhejfxyqd2if0xq5v4r1&dl=0

But, as I wrote above, no panning. Panning controls should be assigned in the sim itself. You could use virtual keyboard or joystick or gamepad events in AAO - but that seems over the top, since you won't be panning differently in different aircraft - right?

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI

Maybe a bit of clarification: AxisAndOhs is in essence just a translator between your hardware and the MSFS SDK. What you see in the lists are the "raw" contents of the SDK, they are the actual events and variables. They have been compiled from the actual SDK documentation.

Now, especially with MSFS, the aircraft developers are not forced to use any of them, and many don't. A lot of aircraft use custom control logic, BVars, InputEvents, LVars and entire scripts. You can operate just about everything from the outside using AxisAndOhs - but that requires finding out how it works in the sim and then replicating that in the app - as a simple assignment if you are lucky, or as RPN scripts if you are not. 

And that's the explanation for the lists in AAO - initially they only contain everything that is in the SDK. If any particular event works with a particular aircraft can't be determined in advance, it is essentially a trial&error process. What is working for one plane may not work in another, or in yet another plane it only works with certain parameters or as part of a script.

Thankfully, a lot of people are creating scripts for all kinds of aircraft. A good place to look for them is flightsim.to. Most packages made for AxisAndOhs contain a script file that you can import and use for assignments. Scripts are hardware agnostic, so it doesn't matter if the script was actually made for the StreamDeck, a Behringer X-Touch or anything else. The scripts will work for your hardware just the same. Ideally, when you get a new aircraft, look on that site for an AAO package that you can use. If you enjoy a bit of detective work and dabbling with RPN scripting you can do it yourself too. The MSFS developer mode provides the necessary tools (Tools->Behaviors)

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI

And another important note about axis: MSFS prefers the Axis Events (second box from the top on the add/change axis dialog). The main flight control events have been duplicated in the very first group of the treelist so that they are easier to find.

Edited November 12, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, I am aware of the limitations of any versions of any company’s flightsim and that of API s.

I also appreciate that there will be ‘trial and error’ with these things, but when I am mostly having to revert to the in game control assignments I’m thinking what’s the point in having another app to learn?

To reply to your points specifically:

Demo vs Retail. My bad, I spent a couple of hours reading the manual (not yet got to the last page, sorry) and creating a profile in the default 152. Obviously not enough time to evaluate properly.

ATC - I just wanted to press a button on the yoke and display the ATC window. Naturally I tried the most obvious field in the list. Ended up with a keyboard emulation. Trial and error and trial and error.

Noted re axes. I only managed to get throttle and prop working and I do understand the distinction between axes and other controls.

Contact details: Ah yes, I can see your email address right at the bottom of the manual. Could not for the life of me find it anywhere on your site (nor on the JustFlight page, which I assume you refer to as the ‘shop’ page?). Not best placed tbh.

I spent the last few hours trying to get the condition lever to work on the default Caravan. Nothing I could find in your app would work. Neither would the Mixture axis. I understand that 3rd party devs may not abide by sdk rules, but if even the default aircraft can’t be controlled using this app, then what’s the point?

I did actually revert to my default Yoke profile (+JoyToKey) because, as you say, most controls are universal. I thought I could create some different Throttle quadrant profiles to cater for differences between engine controls. Sadly, I think it’s not going to work for me. A hybrid of default assignments and those managed by axis and ohs will be more hassle than switching msfs profiles manually imho.

I completely admire what you’ve done here, but this isn’t doing what I thought it would do. I’m sure that I’ll find that some of the other options useful. I’ve been using TouchPortal for external controls but the gauges and ATC stuff you’ve mentioned look promising.

Thanks again for your replies.

@Lorby_SI

I apologise for my earlier posts.

It’s my fault for rushing and not taking my time to RTFM properly and getting impatient.

I’ve been looking at some of your scripting suggestions in this forum and the penny is beginning to drop!

I’ve also found the resources on FlightSim.to and will explore them properly.

Serves me right for trying to start on a new project when feeling under the weather.

12 hours ago, NigeUK23 said:

instruction manual (no clickable index

I will say, this would be a big help for the manual. Would make jumping to the section you need quick and easy. 

10 hours ago, NigeUK23 said:

ATC - I just wanted to press a button on the yoke and display the ATC window. Naturally I tried the most obvious field in the list. Ended up with a keyboard emulation. Trial and error and trial and error.

That did/does work in the legacy simulators (AFAIR), but not so with MSFS. The ATC panel is part of the MSFS tool bar, it cannot be opened with a simple API event. 

You can open and close it when you use the AAO InGame Panel though, there is a chapter in the AAO manual about that (on page 113 there is also the RPN code to toggle the ATC panel). The AAO InGame Panel only has to be active (white border around the symbol in the tool bar), it doesn't have to be open. The InGame panel can be controlled in the AAO "Gauges" menu too.

Edited November 13, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI

14 hours ago, NigeUK23 said:

trying to get the condition lever to work on the default Caravan

This is not a default SDK event or variable, instead they are using a custom BVar / MSFS IE (Input Event) with only three positions (0,1,2). It is not a proper Axis at all, but you can assign it as one by setting Axis Min = 0, Axis Max = 2, Rounding = int.

(note: not even Microsoft and Asobo are using their own SDK all the time)

Whenever you want to assign something:

1. Check if there is an MSFS InputEvent controlling it. IEs are read from the sim at runtime, as they exist for every aircraft individually.  You will only see them on the selection dialogs when AAO is connected to the sim and you are sitting in the cockpit. MSFS IEs are listed in a separate tab on the event selection dialog. Make sure to supply proper values when actuating an IE. IE only exist if/when the aircraft developer implements them - and they don't have to do that.

2. If there isn't one, check out the default events from the SDK that are in the defaul lists. Here too, make sure to supply proper values. Some events work with just 0 or 1, others require actual values (like the AP Alt events, where you have to set 100 or 1000)

3. If all of that fails, analyze the button/knob/lever/clickspot in the MSFS developer mode. Open the dialog "Tools->Behaviors", then click back into the simulator window. Now hover the mouse over the clickspot that you are interested in, and press "Ctrl - G". This will (in most cases) bring up the behavior code of this component. The first item(s) to check out are at the bottom, called something "Asobo...GT...Interaction". They contain the RPN code that is called when you use the mouse - and that is what you want to replicate in AAO (using RPN scripts)

4. As an alternative, if Ctrl-G fails, you can also look at the behavior code in the aircraft's behavior XML files. 

5. You can also observe events and IEs from a dialog in the Scripting menu in AAO. Just be mindful that K: events don't necessarily represent a single mouse actuation, they aren't really "input" features, but actually they are the "setter" mechanisms for sim variables. The sim-internal code frequently uses events for others things too, and lots of them. (=just because you see an event in the observer window does not mean that triggering that event will actuate a certain button. It may just be a consequence of that action, not the cause). Not so for IEs, they really are "input events".

Edited November 13, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI

@Lorby_SI

Thank you so much for the explanation and the pointers. 😀

23 hours ago, NigeUK23 said:

@Lorby_SI

Thank you so much for the explanation and the pointers. 😀

Condition lever IE is called "FUEL_1_Condition_Lever". When you are sitting in the cockpit, you will find it on the event selection dialog in the tab "MSFS IEs" (use the Filter box at the bottom, search for "cond" - when the dialog opens, you can start typing immediately, then press "Enter").

You can assign that to an axis too, but you have to set Axis Min to 0, Axis Max to 2 and Rounding to "int". Numerical boxes can be altered with the mouse wheel (right half = small changes, left half = big changes) or by doubleclicking them - then you can enter a number with the keyboard.

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI

On 11/13/2024 at 4:30 AM, bahnzo said:

I will say, this would be a big help for the manual. Would make jumping to the section you need quick and easy. 

No doubt. Unfortunately, the manual has been written on a piece of software that didn't support this at the time. We would have to refactor the entire manual, take new screenshots and whatnot - times three, because there are three different manuals. 

That kind of effort was not feasible in the past years - IMHO the time was better spent on advancing the app itself.

But as the manual has been printed to PDF directly, you can use the standard Ctrl-F text search in it, that's at least something.

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI

6 hours ago, Lorby_SI said:

Condition lever IE is called "FUEL_1_Condition_Lever". When you are sitting in the cockpit, you will find it on the event selection dialog in the tab "MSFS IEs" (use the Filter box at the bottom, search for "cond" - when the dialog opens, you can start typing immediately, then press "Enter").

You can assign that to an axis too, but you have to set Axis Min to 0, Axis Max to 2 and Rounding to "int". Numerical boxes can be altered with the mouse wheel (right half = small changes, left half = big changes) or by doubleclicking them - then you can enter a number with the keyboard.

Thanks. I had it set up all good yesterday, then lost the settings somehow. I used the axis range 0-1 for high and low idle, and then mapped the button under the detente (TB Velocity One Flight) to cut off.

Also had some weird technical glitches. At one point there were no events showing at all in the events list.

I think it’s coming together now though! Most of the issues are to due with the flakiness of the base sim! I am getting to grips with AAO

I’m also liking the saitek panel implementation. I have the switch panel (with the gear lever) and had previously been using dcsflightpanels to configure it as a key emulator.
 

May I ask if you could give me a few tips on configuring the options on the detente buttons? At the moment I have them mapped in msfs - reverse thrust, for example, is ‘decrease throttle’ on button press and ‘cut throttle’ on button release. I can of course assign these using AAO buttons, but when I do there is no animation of the lever.

9 minutes ago, NigeUK23 said:

Also had some weird technical glitches.

Go to Hardware->Device Blacklist and move everything into the list on the right with the "Ignore" button that isn't a game controller that you use with AAO. That includes all keyboards and mice. 
AAO is very keen on making all devices available that it can find. But there are some(many) that pretend to be a game controller but really aren't. And those can cause problems.

9 minutes ago, NigeUK23 said:

May I ask if you could give me a few tips on configuring the options on the detente buttons? At the moment I have them mapped in msfs - reverse thrust, for example, is ‘decrease throttle’ on button press and ‘cut throttle’ on button release. I can of course assign these using AAO buttons, but when I do there is no animation of the lever.

That would be highly aircraft dependant. What aircraft are you assigning this to? And with what kind of hardware? 

When using a button, the "classic" approach is using "THROTTLE1_DECR" with "Repeat" set to fast for the key down and "THROTTLE1_CUT" for key up. (and subsequent indexes for the other thrust levers)

In general there is no connection between aircraft systems and animations. It is prefectly possible to do one but not the other. So in your case one would have to analyze the behavior code how exactly the lever "ticks".

Especially with the throttles it is often important to use axis events, not variables. ("THROTTLEn_AXIS_SET_EX1" etc.)

Edited November 14, 20241 yr by Lorby_SI