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Concentric circles in Paint Shop Pro

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Now that I know how to texture my prop I'm working on the texture itself. I have the same problem I've noticed on some of the planes in my 'hanger' of downloads - I have 3 nested circles, but I cannot get them to share a common center. How is this done?RobertVirtual Thorp T-18 http://home.nethere.net/kerr/virtual.htm

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i suck a PSP so here's what i do, I cheat :-)open gmax and make 3 circles using the splines. adjust them so they are centered on the grid and take a snapshot w/ printscrn key.open up PSP and open the clipboard data.this will at least give you something to go by.joe

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Hey Robert,I have no clear idea, but here are some thoughts:1 - Make a vertex by intersecting two lines, one horizontal the other vertical, and use their intersection as the relative center for the circles2 - See if you can find the displayed object coordinates and move the circles until they are all on the same coordinateIt might be that neither of these will work, depending on the design of PSP. From my little experience in Photoshop I know that I could really use some time sitting down with the programmers, who probably never used any 3D modeler, and give them a little piece of my mind. It seems things like this are MUCh easier in a modeling program.But then again, they may make it like this for a good reason... ;-)

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My local friend who is working on a Navion gauge package needed to know the exact same thing this morning. He uses Photoshop so I made him an example. I have both of the attached files in layers, so if you would like to see how I did it, send me an email.I think PSP would be very similar. I haven't attempted, because I am a Photoshop nut. (Fabio -- Photoshop is "hard", but like gmax and 3ds, it will do just about anything you want after you work with it for a lifetime. It has been, and I believe, still the "stand" for graphic in Industry -- Started, and is still used, on the more powerful graphic Apple machines.)http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/22640.jpghttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/22641.jpgIn gmax as Joe said, make a spline, circle, clone it, then scale it. Use uniform scale, and enter the value percent as numbers in the "x" box near the bottom of the gmax page. click the box just to the left of the "x" box and it will allow you to enter numeric data.Doing it that way you can have each new cloned circle exactly 75% of the last one if you wish.we r rsam@mtco.com

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In Paint Shop Pro 7#1 - make the circles as vectors#2 - in vector mode (click on the object selector icon), select the objects#3 - From the Menu: Objects->Align->Vertical Center Objects->Align->Horizontal CenterFelix/FFDSPegasus Aviation Design

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Hey Bob.Nice to see you :-).Oh yes, I believe Photoshop is extremely powerful and will do anything you like, but for people that model somethings just don't seem very logical. Hence me using Adobe Illustrator for the past year to make textures for my gauges. You can't beat vector graphics for flexibility and ease of use, and it even has a lot of the Photoshop filters for effects. And of course, after the main work of layout is done, you can open it in Photoshop and do whatever you like that Illustrator couldn't.Anyways, interesting method. Not straight forward and intuitive, but very interesting, thanks Bob!

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Hey Felix.Now there is something I like to see! I didn't know PSP had a vector mode! I always imagined why the good (hmmm, sometimes I call them bad names, but they work hard ;-)) people at Adobe never did this with Photoshop. Or am I mistaken, and Photoshop also has a vector mode?Anyways, as posted above, I use Adobe Illustrator. It is a pure vectorial program just like CorelDraw, extremelly powerful, and perfect for making gauges. And as I stated, you can do everything in layers then import it as is in Photoshop to do work on any of the layers that you couldn't do in Illustrator, but it has been about 6 months that I don't start up Photoshop to make gauges, everything I need, including effects, is in Illustrator. Definitely worth it.

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Felix-That is what I've tried, except I use Objects->Align->Center on Canvas. The result is very close, but not exact. I'll try it using your steps and let you know how it turns out.Robert

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I tried drawing each circle ensuring I started at the midpoint of my bitmap. The gaps between the circles stay constant, but the whole texture is still slightly off which tells me that now it's a mapping problem.Still grinding away at it,Robert

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I like PSP specifically because you can use bitmaps and vector object simultaneously in the same image. I do almost all of my paints with vector objects and concentric circles are pretty easy that way.However, have any of you tried making evenly spaced radial lines around a circle (e.g. tick marks on an altimeter)? It's a no-brainer using a CAD program but I haven't figured out a slick way to do it in PSP.Peter http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/PeterR.gifBFU Forums ModeratorRenegade/Seawolf Design Group (RSDG)[table border=2 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=1][tr][td][table border=0 cellpadding=8 cellspacing=0][tr][td bgcolor=#540000]http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/logo75t.gif[/td][td align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFF6]Bush Flying Unlimited"At home in the wild"Looking for adventure? Come join us! * [link:bfu.avsim.net|Web Site] * [link:www.cafepress.com/bfu,bfu2,bfu3,bfu4|BFU Store] * [link:bfu.avsim.net/join.htm]Join!][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table

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Hey Pete,AGain, Illustrator to the rescue. It is very easy to do it there, you rotate the lines to whatever degree you want, then just use a black circle on top of them with a smaller radius than them, to mask most of their length, just staying with the tickmarks. Check out this EGT for an APU:Perhaps you can do the same type of editing using the vectorial mode in PSP, rotating lines by certain angles then masking part of them?http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/25231.jpgP.S. I uploaded the pic correctly, but somehow they are not showing up.... Maybe the dimensions of 333x333? For the size is only 58K

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Yeah, you can make lines and rotate them but imagine doing that for 100 lines or more. In a CAD program, for example, you just create one line and tell it to do a rotating replication, 100 repetitions over 360 degrees. Instant gratification! If you only want it to cover 1/3 of a circle, you just tell it to replicate over 120 degrees.Like you said earlier, the makers of these paint programs should learn to use modeling or CAD software and then make a really powerful paint tool.I hate it when software makes you do work that the computer should be doing. :-hahPeter http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/PeterR.gifBFU Forums ModeratorRenegade/Seawolf Design Group (RSDG)

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>Yeah, you can make lines and rotate them but imagine doing>that for 100 lines or more. In a CAD program, for example, you>just create one line and tell it to do a rotating replication,>100 repetitions over 360 degrees. Instant gratification! If>you only want it to cover 1/3 of a circle, you just tell it to>replicate over 120 degrees.>>Like you said earlier, the makers of these paint programs>should learn to use modeling or CAD software and then make a>really powerful paint tool.Er, not to sound silly, but have you considered using GMax to generate the lines for you?Create an object to represent the lines with a white color, then use the Array tool to do the even spacing around the arc you desire. A closeup screen shot of the finished array can then be pasted into a new layer in your paint program.You can even save the "trimming" step in the paint program of using a smaller circle to mask/clip the lines shorter, by simply splitting the 'line object' where you want the color to change and assigning a different color to the portion of the line you want to 'clip.' There are undoubtely many other ways to accomplish the task, but these are a couple that I've used over the last year or so... :)I tend to work on a very large canvas - about 4800x4800 for a gauge face that will eventually be resized to 200x200 for the finished product, so resolution isn't much of a problem... :)BillAVSIM OmbudsmanFounder and Director,Creative Recycling of Aircraft Partshttp://catholic-hymns.com/frbill/FS2002/images/fartslogo.jpg

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Hi Bill,Perhaps. But then I lose the vector objects when going back into PSP (i.e. taking the screenshot converts everything to bitmap). Since PSP supports vector and bitmap, I prefer to keep as much in vector form as possible.I'll have to check, but if PSP can import DXF files, I might pull out a 15-year old copy of AutoCAD (might need to pull out an old machine to run it on too) or grab one of the freeware CAD programs. Can Gmax export to vector formats such as DXF? If so, it might be the way to go.Peter http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/PeterR.gifBFU Forums ModeratorRenegade/Seawolf Design Group (RSDG)

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Hmmm, I'll have to see if anyone's made an export plugin. Thanks Bill.Hey, if anyone is interested in a 2D CAD program, here's one that someone recommended to me a while back but whose name I had forgotten. QCad. It's open-source (GPL) and available on multiple platforms (Linux, Windows, MacOS X). http://www.qcad.orgPeter http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/PeterR.gifBFU Forums ModeratorRenegade/Seawolf Design Group (RSDG)

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4800X4800 rgb at 72dpi makes a file 66mb. Then you reduce it 200X200 at 72 dpi? To do that big of image size change, what kind of sampling are your using? 'Bicubic, Nearest Neighbor, or bilinear all end up looking poorer then starting with a 200X200 when I just put a couple of diagonal white lines on a black background.The "rule" that I use and have read about -- is don't resize, you will loose a lot of the picture detail and shapness. Source -from "KellyTown" tips on using photoshop. http://www.kelleytown.com/photoshopguide.htmlThat big 66mb file takes a long time to render if you apply a filter. Our mileage must differ.

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>4800X4800 rgb at 72dpi makes a file 66mb. Then you reduce it>200X200 at 72 dpi? To do that big of image size change, what>kind of sampling are your using? 'Bicubic, Nearest Neighbor,>or bilinear all end up looking poorer then starting with a>200X200 when I just put a couple of diagonal white lines on a>black background.Ok, I overstated it a bit. Here's a real example (now that I have Photoshop loaded, I can get the exact numbers).I created an "old style" Collins radio set for a Citation 2. It houses COM1/STNBY/COM2?NAV1/XPDR/NAV2 in one, panelmounted unit.I started with an 1855x1696 image, simply because that's the size of the 'panel diagram' I used as a source file came out... :) When done, I scale it down to 400x366 using bi-cubic sampling, then I collapse the layers as I need to extract out knobs, switches, etc.By working with a large file, I can put an incredible amount of detail on the smaller parts, which doesn't suffer horribly when rescaled to the final size. I've found that text suffers the most whenever you try to work with too small a size to begin with, and this technique has proven quite workable for me so far.>The "rule" that I use and have read about -- is don't resize,>you will loose a lot of the picture detail and shapness.>Source -from "KellyTown" tips on using photoshop. >http://www.kelleytown.com/photoshopguide.htmlIf I were working with a photo, I would use the same rule, but bitmaps seem to work well for me this way. Even when further reduced by FS on the panel, the text and details remain crisp and easily read... :)BillAVSIM OmbudsmanFounder and Director,Creative Recycling of Aircraft Partshttp://catholic-hymns.com/frbill/FS2002/images/fartslogo.jpghttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/25507.jpg

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When is a pixel not a pixel? Is it when it is in a photo or is it when it is a new image being built from ground zero? An image is an image and 16 million available colors are 16 million available colors. I would think that a pixel is a pixel is a pixel regardless of what you call the "thing" that it is in. If you click the Anti-Aliased check box for the lettering you will get the same result by starting at the "samll" size. When you reduce it down with the bicubic filter, you are adding the effect of anti-aliasing. take a real close look and you will see it.That 4800X4800 was just a bit too big for a forum entry. ;-)Oh well, I said our mileage would differ. :-)

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Darn, I even learned a different math then you. 4500X4500 is close to the same height width ration as 1024X768? So a circle is scaled to a 102 pixels wide by 77 pixels tall and it is still a circle, complete with ani-aliasing applied with no control over it. anti-aliasing turns that nice crisp line between 0,0,0 and the glare shield into a ragged edge when the bicubic filter is applied and you have to redo it.Seems to me that starting at 1024x768 and using the spy glass to enlarge sections as needed would be the best way of doing things. But if Leonardo was doing it, he could start with either a 200X200 or a 10,000x10,000 screen and turn out a masterpiece. Tis the man with the brush that is important.But the rest of us will be better off starting with the size we want to finish with so we can have complete control over the individual pixels at all times.I make a good straight man for displaying examples. Show me the next picture (or two). ;-)

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>Darn, I even learned a different math then you. 4500X4500 is>close to the same height width ration as 1024X768? So a>circle is scaled to a 102 pixels wide by 77 pixels tall and it>is still a circle, complete with ani-aliasing applied with no>control over it. anti-aliasing turns that nice crisp line>between 0,0,0 and the glare shield into a ragged edge when the>bicubic filter is applied and you have to redo it.Now where on earth did I ever say or imply such nonsense? In an effort to be "clever," you've completely missed the point of this technique! :)>Seems to me that starting at 1024x768 and using the spy glass>to enlarge sections as needed would be the best way of doing>things. But if Leonardo was doing it, he could start with>either a 200X200 or a 10,000x10,000 screen and turn out a>masterpiece. Tis the man with the brush that is important.>>But the rest of us will be better off starting with the size>we want to finish with so we can have complete control over>the individual pixels at all times.>>I make a good straight man for displaying examples. Show me>the next picture (or two). ;-)Ok, since a "picture is worth a thousand words," here's another one which might drive my point home visually...Since my ultimate goal is to make the VC mode and 2d panel view identical - therefore seamless - the most effective way to accomplish that task is to design/draw/paint the entire scene, and then use a pair of "boundary boxes" to determine how best to "slice up" the image for each panel and sub-panel that will ultimately wind up in the panel.cfg file.This also allows me to precisely place each gauge or component on the panel in the exact size it needs to be in its final form, and know in advance the exact final size I'll need for each individual gauge bitmap such that it won't need to be re-scaled on the fly by FS at runtime!I'm out the door in 10 minutes for a business trip to Orlando, FL. I'm meeting the rest of the EaglesoftDG team for a series of business meetings and a visit to the Cessna hanger (and a few other aircraft hangers) for research... :) I won't be back "online" until Sunday afternoon.Here's a napkin for you to wipe the egg off your face... :) See ya later, friend!(sorry in advance for the horrible .jpg, but that's what happens when having to resample a full screen to forum size!)BillAVSIM OmbudsmanFounder and Director,Creative Recycling of Aircraft Partshttp://catholic-hymns.com/frbill/FS2002/images/fartslogo.jpghttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/25583.jpg

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Sorry Fr. Bill, please continue doing it your way. These comments are directed to the other readers, showing an alternate method that works very well.(NOTE -- "You" and "your" is everyone except Fr. bill)Once again to avoid resizing of the entire image you should start with the finished size. Start with a blank background. Open your photo of the panel you want to use in a separate file, select all of it, copy it to the clip board, then go to the new image file, create a layer and paste the image onto the new layer. Use the Edit-Transform-Numeric and scale the layer with the photo to fit the finished size of the background. Use the relationships between the new finished size and the orignal size to determine the percent scale factors. And yet another way is to work with the original picture, use the "marquee" selection tool AND set the "style" to "Constrained aspect ratio" setting the values to your finished size. Example 10.24 by 7.68 in the parameter boxes. Now when you use the "marguee" selection tool, it will provide a window in the correct ratio of h/w for the finished. Or ... set the "style" to a fixed size 1024,768 and select the part of the picture you want to use. Either way paste the selected image into the new correctly sized image and then add new layers for the individual art work. Never forget, LAYERS are good! Only flatten to a bmp AFTER you have saved the file as a layered Photoshop image.NOTE --- the following imformation is not needed to use Photoshop.But, as long as we are also talking about travel plans, we will be gone to Oshkosh next week with our 200 channel scanner, digital camcorder, digital camera, 56+16 meg of flash cards for the camera, 12 NiMH AAs, and our laptop to download the daily 360 picture limit off the flash cards. Will also take a couple of blank CDs to burn the images and free the laptop hard drive if needed. Also, plenty of sun screen. From a three circle question to this ... where have we gone with such a simple question? ;-) Maybe we all should be sticking to the topic a little closer. Concentric circles. Seems as if this splinter started with a 4800X4800 image resized to a 200X200 for what must have been a single gauge. More then one gauge in a 200X200 format might be a little hard to read.

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For your file format conversions, two freeware programs will do just about all of it.3D Exploration -- the current payware version will run for a month. However, here is a link to a freeware version that will nag on opening and closing, but continues to work beyond 30 days.http://www.dsmith.gmaxsupport.com/download...3dexplor1_5.exeAlso see:http://www.dsmith.gmaxsupport.com/Gmax_to_3d_Explorer.htmOne other program that is very good for 2D format changes is XnView.Freeware without nags:http://www.xnview.com/These two files will allow you to get from A to B in just about all formats.

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