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Guest Ken_Salter

I'm not "Nasty" enough!! Who's Capt. Bob?

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LOL you're kidding Larry,everybody knows Capt'n Bob.....To be serious...no idea who he is!But to comment that post....totally unneccesary to post something like that.If someone doesn't like FS2002 or Fly2 whats the big deal?? Just leave it there,no need to state that one or another is better.Make up your own mind and keep it there.....until someone asks...then you can answer in a mature way why you think what you think.There has always been a kind of "war" about what sim is best,what car is best,what country is best,what woman is best,what icecream is best and so on.So if it was a simple answer to this....everybody would at least drive a RollsRoyce....The thing is,and a lot of people already found out,is just to ignore that kind of posts....lets live happily together with a lot of sims....bisimuality rocks!!!Johnny"I'LL BE BACK"[div align=center]http://www.avsim.com/hangar/fly/josve/fly2/vas.gif][/div

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You are absolutely correct, Johnny, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why someone posts messages like that. Only to get things heated up and it serves no purpose. So I removed it before anyone had a chance to respond. Some will say a little drastic but I know I get really tired of the "my sim is better than yours" back and forth.So for those that try to go to Larry's link, that is why it is dead now. :-)

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Mr. L. Adamson.... your NASTY reputation preceeds you. In all fareness i am not going to engage in personal attacks that you have started now or in the past. I want it noted on the record though that i still don't like your NASTY attitude, due to your respresed hostility to the MS FS 2002 software. Anyway, lets start over. I applaud you coming over to the FLY! community it appears that you are making forward progress. Just one step at a time Mr. L. Adamson. :)

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Dear Mr. L.Adamson,I appologize if I was being slightly aggresive. When it comes to FLY! i am extremely emotional out it. The overpowering financial weight, and monopitalization of MS FS has put TRI out of the FLY! business unless a mirical happens. Hope you have a Marvelous weekend, and keep FLY!II ing.. heheh:-bluegrab

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I hope you are wrong, Captain Bob, when you say FLY is out of business. This is a great simulator and doesn't need to be put in the dumper.If others, on their own, can develop planes and scenery I would think that some third party vendors would be willing to do so (or maybe there just is not enough money in it for them).My thanks go to all those in the FLY community who want to continue with this simulator and develop quality add-ons. Keep FLYing!!

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Eagle,I understand what your saying. My point is the financial muscle of MS will never be overcome thus, third party developers can not make a profit because there is not a large enough market. PMDG is about the only consistent commercial add-on developer for FLY!. It appears that PMDG needs additional support, thus they are diving into the MS FS 2002 market. My point being, it is a shame that such a monopoly exists that it scares away competion for creative, REALISTIC flight sim. development.When I state the FLY! is out of business, I am refering to that there is a 98% chance there will be NO FLY!III. Which is a shame, and there will be a MS FS 2003 or 2004 edition comming unfortunetly.CB

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You must first realize, and probably already have, that FLY inititally gained some sucess against MSFS with it's unique approach to panels and systems. It was then farther enhanced with many creative 3rd parties supplying addons such as Ground, SKY, TerraScene, the V88's, & PMDG commercial airliners. It's "probable" failure has less to do with "Microsoft", than the circumstances leading to the very rushed & released piece of software known as FLYII. FLYII, as it sits on a store shelf, is very incomplete, buggy, & un-polished! It seemed to "undo" what we had in the first place! We all know the reasons........of which some are unfortunate, but it has little to do with the competitor! Many who have purchased it------ shelved it, pure & simple. Since you're so "down" on MSFS, as in you're "editorial" yesterday :), you apparently failed to take notice (or didn't want to)that FLYII & FS2002 both have their misgivings & great points. If only "bad" examples are used to make certain points to discredit a product, then all the rest of us who are long time simmers, rated pilots, etc, just look, smirk, & say "we've heard it all before". Just as some creative work is still being acomplished for the FLY series, there are many very creative talented & knowledgeable people working to farther improve the realism of the MS products. You're going to end up with some realistic flight simming with either sim... or both!L.Adamson

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Hi Larry,Your education is coming along quite well. :-)However, (You knew this was coming) :-)I did read your entire thread above and the good points you made on Fly!II. But..... ;-)You Said:"Its "probable" failure has less to do with "Microsoft", than the circumstances leading to the very rushed & released piece of software known as FLYII. FLYII, as it sits on a store shelf, is very incomplete, buggy, & un-polished! It seemed to "undo" what we had in the first place! We all know the reasons........of which some are unfortunate, but it has little to do with the competitor! Many who have purchased it------ shelved it, pure & simple."I disagree with the words "probable failure", I think it is too soon to tell. That is like someone stating no one else should ever have built airplanes after Boeing locked up the market, and then along comes Airbus. And in the beginning they had many, many problems. MSFS has been around exponentially longer than the Fly Series.Also, although off the shelf it needs help, as you say, there are some good things available in Fly!II, and I only wish that those that did shelf it would take another look, as it is not the same off the shelf product as it was a year ago. (As long as they find their way here.) I wish We could find them all... ;-)There are many developers that work on FLY!II, PMDG is not the only one. You have ROTW that is simply amazing, and others too.The point is this:I wish we could have every person who ever had a concern with FLY!II after release a year ago would somehow find this forum. But that is not reality, but if it were, I am confident there would be quite a few that would discover what I have.IMHO, Both Fly!II and MSFS2002 stand side by side on my computer. I use both for different reasons, and I just don't feel you should go araound talking about this on the shelf sim here in this forum. Talk about the REAL VERSION that a lot of us fly almost every day for a bit, and then do your comparisons.Your coming along Larry, don't regress back from whence you came. :-)Best Regards,Joe :-waveBTW - We have our Young Eagles Rally Next saturday at JOT 9-2.http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

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>there are some good things available in Fly!II, and I only >wish that those that did shelf it would take another look, >as it is not the same off the shelf product as it was a year >ago. (As long as they find their way here.) I wish We could >find them all... ;-) >>Joe,I am not sure about it. Customers have uncanning ability to search, wait, try, re-try and get their software "fixed" through patches or other means. I bet the same is true abot FLYII. Whoever had any hopes for FLYII most likely had already found and applied all the fixes available. No need to look very far for these folks. But the fact is that FLYII remains crippled in many key areas today - this is less because of "bugs" but more due to certain design choices. This forum was visible busier in the good old FLY2k days - if you talk to some of these ex-FLYers you hear a common theme - there are just too many issues remaining and too few human resources to take care of them.Michael J.

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Michael,You honestly have me lost here. What do you think are the key areas were Fly! II is still crippled? I am sure you talk to more ex-Flyers than I do, but I do not see what these serious issues are. BTW, I really do not want to start a Fly! II versus FS2002 discussion. IMO both have their strong and weak points and what you like most is simply a matter of personal preference.Henri

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Hi Michael,Long time no chat.. I can appreciate where you are coming from as I am aware of your concerns posted prior to this.I guess I am an anomoly, but I suspect I am not.I just disagree that it is crippled in many key areas. Right now, I am in the middle of Terrascening a 50 mile area around my Home Airport JOT. That program is amazing. You speak of the design choices, and I say those choices are made in every single sim. I also suspect that quite a few people don't run a "Clean" System. On a clean system, (my definition), I feel Fly!II runs pretty darn good. Since I fly I do look for a systems capable sim. I get this with both sims. Hence the word Bi-Simual.I do not honestly believe that one is better than the other. I can only share my personal opinions on how the sims perform on my system. I have always tried to be honest.You see, by nature I am an Optimist. But, there are flaws in every sim. There are quite a few things that bug me in both Fly!II and MSFS2002. But not enough that make the sim unusable.I am just happy there are dedicated people of both that continue to develop. I am a leech in that respect as I have not not really contributed except for the help I have given here or there on occasion. I do what I can.It is my hope a developer would come along and make Fly!III a reality. Just think if Fly!II was repackaged, what would you include with it today. What add-ons, freeware aircraft, development tools, scenery that has been developed, etc....That is just it for me. I choose to look on the positive side and appreciate the gifts that I have received. I paid $29.95 for Fly!II and I paid $39.95 for MSFS2002 Pro. I have gotten hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of each, and some not so pleasant hours as well out of each. But I wouldn't trade the experience or even the friends I have made here by having a choice to not do it again. I would do it again, and I will be there for the next itteration of Fly, whenever that is. Thanks for listening to one of my more mild rants. (if you made it all the way to the end. :-) )Regards,Joe :-wavehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

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>Thanks for listening to one of my more mild rants. (if you >made it all the way to the end. :-) ) >Reading all of that, wasn't any worse than my first "blue screen of death" with FS2002 this evening! :)L.Adamson

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>Reading all of that, wasn't any worse than my first "blue >screen of death" with FS2002 this evening! :) :-lol :-lolI'd prefer one of Joe's posts to the BSOD anyday!Take no notice of Larry equating your posts with the BSOD Joe, sum of us still luv ya! :-lol

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Ahhhhh,The elusive BSOD we all thought was gone from MS forever... :-lolI've only had a few of those. One thing that helps me is I always write down everything I install, so if there is a problem, I can track it. It has always been an add-on of one sort or another.One example. I enjoy Bush flying and the great folks at BFU have designed some awesome scenery. Well, with that scenery installed, I then installed Eddie Denny's mesh for Alaska, and wammo...Crash to desktop at 16% texture loading every time from Moudi's or shorepoint with the send report to MSFT. Well, needless to say I didn't send the report because it was an add-on, and I understand that is the risk. I removed the mesh and all is fine again.I don't even want to debug what the problem was. It just is not worth the time or effort. Who knows where the problem is, as it just is not that important to me. A Stable sim is, and that is what I have with both sims unless I screw it up. :-)Regards,Joe :-wavehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

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I usually try to ignore the negative posts here. I check out all posts from time to time just to see if any major changes or upgrades have came out. I see that the two parties have made amends somewhat. But I also see that this post at this time has been viewed close to 500 times. This should show something to those who at times get a bug up their butt, that we dont live in a perfect world. Nor do we live in a perfect simulator world either. Now unless things have changed drastically since I went to bed last night and woke up this morning. Then much hasnt changed since then. Other than the usual pillaging and mayhem that goes on around the world every single day. Their will always be someone who has nothing better to do with their time than to just find something to complain about. Just like some of the 477 people who have viewed this post just for the sake of hoping to see some mud slinging.For those who havent been around for awhile let me try to set the record straight about FlyII!. To try and compare FlyII! and any of the Microsoft Flight sims dollar for dollar is akin to comparing a Mercedes to a golf cart. When I say " dollar for dollar " I am speaking of the resources that are available to the two different developing parties involved. Had Terminal Reality had the technical resources available that Microsoft has then maybe things would have been different. But the end result is what really matters to the consumer. If this was the issue at hand then anyone with any common sense would agree that any product released by Microsoft should and would be expected to be bug free at release. But this isnt the case as we all to well know. To my knowledge there hasnt been any one program out there that is or was bug free upon release. They all have some sort of patch or upgrade to them eventually.That being said. The fine people at Terminal Reality busted their butts to release a outstanding finished product. The issue is that they got screwed by the publisher GodGames and were forced to release an unstable product. They asked for more time to work out the bugs that were in the product that was to be sent to the customers. I know this as a fact as I was one of those who helped in the beta testing. Many of us were just as upset as the customers who went out and purchased the sim off the shelf. All of our names are in the credits for the sim as beta testers. No we werent the actual developers of the sim. But without the help of dedicated beta testers that were involved in its development, this sim would have never even been ready for release probably for another year or more. We worked day and night as the deadline approached to provide as much information possible and in the closing days their were some major gains made. At one point it didnt look very good. Mr Harvey was very ill and in the hospital. Not being able to get his input and final say on alot of issues made matters even worse. I for one am very happy that Mr Harvey is still with us today, without him none of what we have would been possible. I tip my hat to all of the third party developers out there who work on their own time to help improve FlyII!. Without them what would FlyII! be like? So before anyone wants to rant and rave about how bad FlyII! is or they feel ripped off by Terminal Reality. Do some research first about what actually took place. Trust me not a single person wanted FlyII! to be a failure and we all did what was humanly possible to see that happen. As far as that fact is FlyII! is far from being a failure. Yes it was released with bugs I do not argue that point. I have explained as to why that happened.Just a little tidbit of info for all the naysayers of Terminal Reality and FlyII!. How many of you out there knew this? About Terminal Reality Headquartered in Lewisville TX, Terminal Reality is a technology-driven independent developer of PC, Mac, PlayStation2, Xbox, and Dreamcast games. Founded in 1994, the company has created several best-selling games including Terminal Velocity, Microsoft Hellbender, Microsoft Monster Truck Madness 1 & 2, Nocturne, 4x4 EVO, FLY! and the award-winning Microsoft CART Precision Racing. In addition, Terminal Reality created the first 3D game for the Windows 95 platform, Microsoft Fury3. Terminal Reality also licenses its innovative Nocturne Engine that features real-time lighting/shadowing, cloth simulation, volumetric fogging and cinematic cameras. The Nocturne engine recently powered the highly acclaimed Blair Witch trilogy of games, developed jointly by Terminal Reality, Human Head Studios, and Ritual Entertainment. http://www.terminalreality.com. Errrr did I read this correctly??? No tell me it isnt real? Wow it is!!!!!!!!! What a revelation !!!!!! Terminal Reality had created some of the biggest hits from the past out there for Microsoft. Now the next time you want to bad mouth Terminal Reality stop and chew on this before you do so. To use the words of a old cousin of mine Paul Harvey...... Now thats the rest of the story. Good Day! :) I feel much better now that I have that off my chest. :)Why Oh .... Why cant I ????FlyII! ver. 2.30Directx 8.1nVidia drivers 23.11ECS K7S5A SOCKETA /DDR/ AUDIO/ATX MB, DDR 128MB PC-2100 266MHZ MEMORY ,AMD ATHLON T-BIRD 1.2GHZ 256K FSB266 PGA , NVIDIA GEFORCE2 MX-400 64MB 4X-AGP

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