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Guest Josve

RealAir, TJ (ROTW) and the Seneca five

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Reading the post below I will lay out our position with regards to Fly!2.When we released the highly acclaimed Decathlon/Citabria we were dissapointed with the total downloads.It became apparent that for every one download in Fly!2 we would get 6-10 times the downloads in FS2002.Larry is correct in the amount of work needed to complete an aircraft to the standards that we want to achieve.A commercial decision was taken to build for fs2002 and to abandon our projects for the Seneca and Lear 35A.At RealAirSimulations we are a tiny unit and there isnt the manpower to build for two platforms.I approached ROTW as they build to the quality that we want and TJ (Thomas Jullien) agreed to build the panel and interior views for the Seneca V.Thomas is doing a superb job and is well advanced on the panel so we will release the Seneca five.We also have the Lear 35A which he or ROTW maybe persuaded to complete too (I havent asked yet).Fly! has always been very close to my heart and in many ways beats FS2002. I was over the moon when TJ agreed to finish the Seneca Five.Should any group here want to work on a Lear Panel and interior maybe the others at RealAir will release the Lear as Freeware but that is just me thinking aloud (I need to ask them :-)If there is a change and a Fly!2 B or Fly!3 is released then we would reconsider our situation.Peter

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Since it's been well over 24 hours with no replies..................On behalf of the FLY community.............. ah, nevermind! :)L.Adamson

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Larry,I never thought you would be the last person in here! :-lol Oh, and I am looking forward to that Seneca!

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JohnnyIt is sad and we do still get involved with freeware. I notice that there have hardly been any replies to this post other than you, Larry and Michael.No one has come forward and said that they would like to build the lear panel. I am sure Rob Young who still does extensive background freeware work would be only too happy to work the flight model for the Lear.I intend to put my very detailed knowledge of the Seneca into the Seneca release with Rob to get the Seneca as close as it gets (the release of the Seneca wont come down to money as no way will its revenue approach a return on the time put into it.Having decided to go commercial with RealAir we have to give it our best shot.All of us have been freeware for years did it for the love of the hobby.If RealAir doesnt takeoff then who knows.People like Rob and Sean Maloney who are at the top of what they do cant be expected to work thousands of hours for the love of freeware only.There comes a time when they have to decide to make a crust from their involvement or severely curtail their outputPeter

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Hi Peter,I just wanted to thank you for being forthright. I can fully appreciate the reasons for RealAir's decisions. Goodwill doesn't put food on the table, nor a roof over your head. I just want to clarify that I was expressing a sense of sadness that Fly! II doesn't have the user base to make it economically viable. It's an awesome FS engine and I personally would hate to have to dumb down to anything else. :-) Whoops! Did I say that out loud?! As far as the Lear panel is concerned, I would love to take a crack at it. However, I know that as of right now, there is no way that I could--I simply don't have the expertise to do so. Therein, lies the rub. I suspect there are those of us who want to help with the Lear project, but virtually none of us are qualified.I am trying to learn this stuff, but (egads!) there's a learning curve! All the best in your future endeavors...Cheers, Tony

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I know Peter that you and the rest of RAS have been important for the developing of Fly2 as freeware/payware designers :) And your work is really appreciated!!I just think it's kind of sad that the joy and fun developing stuff for Fly2 not longer is present......(seems like it)If I could i'd really wanted to join a group developing freware stuff for Fly2.But I don't have the skills and don't know a thing about programming and so on.So my contribution to the Fly community is to run my Fly site with all info I can get,to provide the latest news to the community,and trying my best to spread the words in several fora to get people to realize that Fly2 is av alternative to F$2002.And in a way I think I have succeded at least here in Norway.I have posted my best shots for almost a year now,and have got the flightsim community to open their eyes,and see that there is another sim that can be a competitor to F$2002.I also do some testing of scenery and planes for other people when I have some spare time :)There is also another issue of course.......and that is when there is no longer further development of new addons to the sim,there is a chance it will die out of itselves....But luckily there are several freeware groups producing addons for Fly2 :)Johnny"I'LL BE BACK"[div align=center]http://www.avsim.com/hangar/fly/josve/fly2/vas.gif][/div

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JohnnyYour contributions and enthusiasm are what makes the hobby what it is.From my own persective I have been with Fly! from the beginning, through their troubled times as well as the high points.My heart lies with Fly! and it is always a difficult decision when the heart is involved.But looking on the positive side We have the Seneca five which is going to be an exciting release for fly!2 and maybe the Lear 35A?????Then again who knows for the future.I would like to see a statement from PMDG on their plans?Peter

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Peter,I guess I'm still in a little bit of shock, but I would certainly say that I understand your position. I'm somewhat disappointed in the Fly! community right now - your Citabria package is one of the finest in all of simming at an unbelieveable value!Maybe with a little more push along the lines of Johnny's great web site we can help a vastly uninformed user group become more aware of RealAir's existence. I continue to believe that there are many simmers (no matter what product they use) that never go online, never check for updates, never join forums....Here's wishing you, Rob, and the rest of RealAir all the best in your venture. There are still a number of us working hard to keep Fly! alive and slowly but surely updated and adjusted for the future.

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Well, if Fly II had more planes and modeled airports from the start, it would have sold a lot more. The sim itself is fine, but I always miss more planes to choose from. Not a lot of good-looking planes with the Hawker panel/flight model, but like the PMDG series...true to the real plane inside and outside.If Fly II development stops, well then I just have to quit simming, because I just cant`t swallow "The Other Sim"...I HATE the money-driven world.

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There's a catch 22 in all of this. MSFS needs competition, yet the crowd always seems to be attracted to the safer side. The safer side offers the illusion that everything is going well( when a no patch approach may be a sign that MS knows it does not have to worry about the competition). As a long time simmer ( from fs1 on), I am deeply troubled by the loss of variety, that is of thought that more than one sim was in the works. I still think that what FLy2 needs is ingenuity, rather than money. I say this because it's so close to being a great product. From here, word of mouth would take over. I know I am rambling, but FLY2 has always represented the spirit of how things could be. I am amazed at what a few individual can do to any sim. I just hope that some act of ingenuity triggers new interest in FLY2+. tony

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Peter,When RAS announced their partnership and launched the web site, I had my credit card ready. Unfortunately, I run Fly!II with a Mac and like the number of Fly! users compared to FS2002 users the Mac community was once again shut-out. I realize this is a programming problem similar to the PMDG aircraft but I think there would have been an increase in sales had there been a Mac patch released at the same time. The Mac community is a quiet one, especially since FS2002 doesn't exist for us and I'm glad for that.Like yourself, I love the Fly series and hope that one day FLY! rises to the top! That's all we Mac users have - HOPE.Peter

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TonyA lot of the problems have been the lack of money meaning publishers forcing release before the product was ready and more important the fact that there was little or no marketing.The success of FS2002 has been another problem which all in all means that as things stand at this point in time The Fly! platform is not an attractive one for commercial developers.Fly!2 is a niche market sim. That means you either sell an addon aircraft for around $100 which wouldnt work as you would end up with hardly any takers or it becomes a mainly freeware platform.But I repeat the Seneca Five will be released and this will be an exciting addition to fly!2. We have the Lear???????? and ROTW are building superb additions....Maybe they can find some place for me to contribute to Fly!.The TBM 700 was an astounding aircraft which matched or exceeded commercial releases.Who knows maybe there will be a Fly!3 or a consortium which will update Fly! to B, C, D like X-PlanePeter

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Peter, I agree with you fully. With these endeavors we need some leadership,even if it's done loosely. For a while, Richard Harvey, depite his illness and Tri related obbligations, offered moral and real support. Since all of us have other jobs, it's important to have some highly talented FLY person(s) provide the incentive or leadership to pursue some projects. In some commercial cases, if REalSim or PMDG stated their minimum sales goals for FLY add-ons, I think they would get overwhelming support. In a worst case, they would at least know about the lack of support. Also,this time around, neither REalSim nor PMDG received real credit for their work or much advertising. In fact, if one forgets the name REalSim, he would have difficulty finding any reference to it. Avsim, too, could do a better job in the forum section for a "quick" "goto" button to another site. It's still very difficult finding Simvul for newcomers. So I go back to a basic assumption: There should either be a well know leader in our FLY commmunity who gets things and people moving, or there is a real need for a FLY Club, which pays dues and actually invests in specific projects with cash. Incidentally, some of FLY users do not necessarily give cash away, but if asked, one would be surprised as to how much we would offer to see some projects go forward. There are FLY projects on my list for which I would pay a reasonable amount before hand: a more intuitive SquawkBox, and more work on cockpit system realism. tony

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Peter-I cannot speak for the entire PMDG team, but as a developer, you've heard me say time and time again that I definitely support Fly!2, as it has a much more interesting (and better!) development platform than MSFS-anything. I never liked programming in Macro-languages anyway, and the C-programming environment that Microsoft provides is far from appealing.However, that is NOT the only reason why I liked the Fly!-series from day one. A far more important reason is the backing that TRI's developers (with Rich being the leader) have provided historically, in terms of opening up the SDK and allowing questions to be answered. I wouldn't even imagine Microsoft giving the level of support that TRI gave all this time (if anyone from Microsoft *is* reading this, YES, we DO need it, as a company - so pls. contact us!).I will keep supporting Fly!2 as a developer (I am enhancing Squawkbox as we speak), because I definitely do not want to see it die. I don't care too much for the economics of it, but as a developer, nothing brings me more pleasure than seeing developers who care for their work, stand behind their product the way Rich Harvey and Paul Russell have.

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I said i hated the money-driven world and I do. But at the same time, if the developers need more money I`ll gladly pay more for a good product.Maybe the developers should try a poll in the forum before announcing a new product, that way they would have a clue about the income...

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We need more people like you, Lefteris. As I said earlier.... all we need is love....:-)tony

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>There's a catch 22 in all of this. MSFS needs competition, >yet the crowd always seems to be attracted to the safer >side.Not sure why safer. The fact is that consumers can and will always find the "value". FS2002 offers these days tremendous value. If FLY2 instead competing with the FS developed its own formula for a simulator instead of providing questionable eye-candy then maybe the situation would be different. Unfortunately if there is anybody to blame here it is not the consumers for making a 'safe' choice but producers of FLY2 who failed to provide the vision/execution for their product.I agree however about ingenuity. This is what was needed from day 1.Michael J.

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It is not so much that RealAir has abandoned Fly, more that the potential customers needed to keep Fly alive have abandoned it in favour of FS2002. As Peter said, we are keeping the Seneca project going with TJ's help, but we know this is a labour of love and expect to make a loss on this project. I hope people understand that the RealAir team as individuals did a lot of work over several years to help keep the Fly platform up and running with many free addons, tweaks, new aircraft, new textures, new flight models and other enhancements.The Citabria package must be the best value addon in the entire payware sim market, but despite excellent reviews and feedback the sales for this aircraft barely reached break-even. I can only imagine what PMDG have suffered with their much greater initial committment and large team of designers.Others may disagree, but in my sincere opinion, Fly2k was a very promising sim which I believe should have been extended and enhanced. Fly2 for me was a backward step, and is a core sim which lacks very basic functions you would expect in a new version and has very poor scenery, despite the efforts of many who have done their best to improve this situation. We all know that underlying the above was a rush to publish due to commercial pressures. I said at the time that this would be a fatal step and it has proved to be so.Best Regards,Rob Young

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>Others may disagree, but in my sincere opinion, Fly2k was a >very promising sim which I believe should have been extended >and enhanced. Fly2 for me was a backward step, and is a core >sim which lacks very basic functions you would expect in a >new version and has very poor scenery, despite the efforts >of many who have done their best to improve this situation. Rob,Exactly.Instead of recognizing these simple facts some here would rather put the blame on under-informed ignorant consumers or perhaps some Microsoft's dark forces.Michael J.

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I see your point, Michael. In fact, I agree with the fact that Tri should have gone in a slightly different direction. By "safe" side, I mean that we should not underestimate the power of name recognition. MS has had the good fortune of becoming a household name( and not undeservingly,either). All things being equal, a consumer faced with either an MS product( which has been around for a long time) and a brand new product will most likely go with MS. This puts practically any new sim at a disadvantage. But in the end, Michael, market forces have cast a die on FLY2. We can only take it, like a collector's item, and enjoy it for what it is, and hope that from time to time an add-on adds to its charm. With greater luck, we can hope that some smart developer (with new money and energy) picks it up. Afterall, if fighter sims still can make money( il-2), so can a new,improved civil sim. tony

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So, Rob, are you saying that there's no hope for FLY2? I was under the impression that the "beta team" was working on those items that would give FLY2 what it should have had when it first came out. What would developers do if MS decided to leave the flight sim business? Would they go back to the days when multiple sims(however flawed) were appreciated by a more "veteran" simmer community? I am just curious. Your plane is in fact one of the best planes in the sim world. I fly msfs2002 and, frankly, after a while those unreadable cockpits bring me back to FLY2. Then, when I see some add on for fs2002, I get excited and download it. When I run it, alas, I find that many of these downloads are variations of the same flawed planes. When I look at the exceptions, I find that fs2002 and FLY are almost on par. This is the point from which I get hopeful. I am grateful for anyone who develops add ons free or not. I simply am concerned about a one flight sim world. tony

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