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Guest JonP01

In Reply to Michael and everyone (Was Hey Tom.... )

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Ever since my electricity was restored late last night, and I have been able to catch up with the message flow here, I have pondered Michael's posting and my response. Scott and Aiden have replied just as I would have. However, I would like to expand on some things and add a few points of clarification for everyone to consider.[ol][li] This is NOT a democracy. Its been said before and doubtless, will be said again. Two reasons for this; AVSIM pays the bills to keep it running, and you DON'T pay our lawyer. Until you do, we set the rules and will enforce them as we deem appropriate. If you don't like those rules, leave. If you violate those rules, you risk being shown the door.[li] In the last 30 days, as tabulated just 10 minutes ago, there have been over 128,468 total registerd and unregistered guests who have come to the forums. An average of 1,159 posts a day have been made system wide. That's over 37,000 messages in the last month folks. If you want to take it down to the hour, that's 48 posts per hour, on average. There is no way our VOLUNTEERS have the time, or the inclination to monitor this place 24/7 and it is unreasonable to expect that we do so. The COMMUNITY NEEDS TO TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY... You are going to hear that a lot from now on. Is this or isn't it a community?[li] Our policies on the use of the system are pretty specific - you can view them at the link at the top of the page here, or you can go to http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/toc.html to see our Terms of Use. Those haven't changed, and that is what you agreed to when you registered to post in these forums.[li] Everything a moderator does is based on judgement. Every decision to leave a thread, pull a thread, lock a thread, is a judgement call. Our guys do a great job and have AVSIM Staff's 110% support in the application of their judgement. And just so we understand each other, there are no "black and white" judgement calls (well there are, and those get no more than about a microsecond of thought before being acted on). Most of the contentious "calls" our moderators, and I, make, are in the shades of gray. That's a fact of life, and one that we accept in doing this. But... IT IS OUR CALL, NOT YOURS. And if some find that we may pull or lock a thread too soon, then we accept that we are guilty as charged. IT IS OUR EXPERIENCE here that fuels that judgement call to pull a thread that may "appear" to be going south.[li] We owe no one an explanation as to our actions. You agreed to the terms of use when you registered. If your message is removed or a thread disappears, you can be assured that it violated those terms. That's all you really need to know, unless the moderator decides to explain it to you. If your message is part of a thread that does get removed, point your ire at the poster in the thread that caused it to be pulled in the first place. AGAIN... At some point, all of us have to take responsibility for our COMMUNITY'S actions here, and NOT MAKE THE MODERATOR THE CONVENIENT FOCUS OF YOUR ANGER. I see a lot of that, and it is too conveninet. Put the responsibility where it belongs.[li] I understand Michael's reguest for a clarification. When you deal in the gray areas, there is very little clarification that can be provided, except to justify every decision we make. We are not going to do that.[/ol]Here's the simple truth, from my perspective. Look at the numbers above and at the results of the 2002 Demographic survey taken todate. There a lot of participants here, and just lurkers, that are under the age of 15. Setting aside age, there are people in these forums from all over the world with different ethnic, religious and personal beliefs and values. AVSIM IS DEDICATED TO PROVIDING A SYSTEM SUITABLE FOR ALL TO PARTICIPATE IN, REGARDLESS OF CULTURE, LANGUAGE, RELIGION OR PHILOSOPHY. If that means that we exercise a little firmer control over language, or seem to react to something that you can't see a reason for, so be it. I have been involved in forum management of one type or another since 1983/4. I have seen every form of management style. I know that the best forums are the ones that make a comfortable place for EVERYONE to congregate, not just a select few. Because it is comfortable, the forum allows all of us to learn, share our hobby and make great friends all around the world, with a diversity of background that we would not otherwise have the opportunity to share. If that is not the goal of this forum and those who attend it, then having a forum at all is a waste of time. Having said that, I think the success of the AVSIM forums speaks for itself. These are the largest and most popular forums in the community of flight simulation, and I think that says all there needs to be said about our rules and moderating philosophies.

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Thanks for a response Tom.Great Site, Great Forums, Great Mod squad, and nice little shades of grey. :-) I don't envy your position, but I do respect what you and the others do here.Thanks again for letting us be your guests here, and Avsim is a great Host. Best Regards,Joe :-wave.Oshkosh Pictures From 2001 (Part 1) 78 Pics in Frames with 1mb in ThumbnailsHigh speed connection Recommended:http://home.attbi.com/~flypics1/FrameSet.htm.Oshkosh Pictures From 2001 (Part 2) 106 Pics in Frames with 1.5mb in ThumbnailsHigh speed connection recommended:http://home.attbi.com/~flypics2/FrameSet.htm.Picture Gallery of My Flight in a 1945 SNJ-6 on June 1st, 2002Joliet, Illinoishttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/FrameSet.htm.http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

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Tom - Once again, a classy response from a classy guy who runs a classy organization.Thanks, Tom, and all mods, who provide us with a place we can share our views, news and ideas.This isn't about restricting our freedom of speech, it's about making this a better place to stay in touch with our great community.I lurk these forums almost every day, and rarely post, unless something directly affects me. This time, I felt this topic does affect me, and it affects all of us.Mark me down as a proud supporter of Tom, Avsim and all of the Mods who's job I definitely do not envy.With great respect,Redrock

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Enjoy your site and the forums. Don't let thesmall people get you down. Keep up the goodwork.Jerry Musselman

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Clear enough and in my opinion mostly valid. I say "mostly" because there still is a difficult question: how can the "community take some responsibility" if it is "our call, not yours"?

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IMHO, easy. When a user repeatedly pushes the boundries and causes disruption / angst, the weight of community opinion (expressed maturely) should give that user pause when attempting to do it again. It's called peer pressure. Not always effective, but when coupled with the realization that staff here won't tolerate too many episodes of boundry expansion, the recalitrant should get the message pretty fast.

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>the recalitrant should get the message pretty fast.

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To the above person referring to me as "small": again, I think one should search the archives or at least read a poster's ratings before making personal judgements...To Tom, buddy, I take my spanking, it's well-deserved, thanks for not making it a whipping...Keeping to my schedule, I'll make my next rant some time in 2006 ;)You're power was out last night?If only I'd been so lucky, I could've saved you some aggrevation :Dapologetically,michael

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Sometimes,I am so quick I surprise myself. I have been edumacated again...**********************re

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:-lol Michael, it DID NOT save me any aggravation. Since our power was out, and I had absolutely no other excuse, I found myself taking my wife to a nearby "Outback" Steakhouse. I had planned to come home and go to bed after work... Talk about aggravation! And then I read your post... and now you know why I DID NOT respond last night. Had I, you would have received the brunt of a frustrating evening at a Faux Australian eatery. Summary... somebody was looking out over us both. :-lolProbably my wife.All's well that ends well.

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Is the New Zealand lamb they have actually from New Zealand?Love their Victoria Steak!

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Tom-I think that was "excellently" ;-) put. I would love to just cut and paste that entire post, as it sure sums up the position of VOLUNTEER moderators quite well....or better yet, just make a signature out of it. :-)Regards,http://home.earthlink.net/~snyders2000/name.jpg

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"...and I had absolutely no other excuse, I found myself taking my wife to a nearby "Outback" Steakhouse."When I told my wife what was happening last night (after she came home from work and said "You look like someone died!"), she said, and I quote:"Good. Maybe they'll ban you and you'll start coming out for dinner on time.":D(don't let her bribe you, Tom. I'll be good now. I promise ;))michael

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You go for it Jeff... Just don't make it into a sig, please... I am sure it would loose its "pizzazz" after about three reads of it. :)

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...but then what will he do with his sig after the Red Wings lose??

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Lamb? Hmmm... don't know. Last REAL New Zealand lamb I had was in Suva. Last time I had mutton was in Auckland. Go figure... I had the Steak Salad and my wife had the Chicken, bacon, melted cheese thingy. I filled up on the "Shrimps on the barbie" starter along with some help from the fried 'shrooms my wife ordered. By the time the main Steak Salad showed up, I was ready to go home. :)

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I >found myself taking my wife to a nearby "Outback" >Steakhouse. The trouble with your North American "Aussie Outback" restaurants is that they really need an Aussie advisor. We had a really good laugh when we visited one of these restauants a few years ago .For example, what the H**** is "ketchup"?? You certainly won't find any of that in Australia --- I do believe it is something like "Tomato Sauce" (which you will find plenty of at an Aussie Barbeque.) :)Barry

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:-lol Thank ye, sirI promise I won't make it into a sig... ;-) ... but I may make it into a tapestry. Bahahaha :-) In some cases it would be useful just to hang that on the front door of my house--"This is NOT a democracy. Its been said before and doubtless, will be said again. Two reasons for this; I pay the bills, and you DON'T pay our lawyer." :-lolRegards,http://home.earthlink.net/~snyders2000/name.jpg

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At yours we'll find a brownish sauce called, interestingly enough "Brown Sauce"!! Leave to the Australians to come up with colorful names... Oh, and then, what is it with pasty gunk you refer to as "Vegamite"? I refer to it as spreadable brown Iron pills... Cause that is exactly what it tastes like. :-lolAll in good fun.. is the spice of life that makes the world go round, or at least your toilets to spin in the opposite direction. :)

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>...but then what will he do with his sig after the Red Wings >lose?? Yes, that's right, the best team in hockey is going to lose the Stanley Cup to a team that shouldn't even be there in the first place... uh-huh... Wait, what's that sound? It sounds like... An alarm clock! Oh! Time to wake up from that dream ;)Max Cowgill

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LOL, and you post this withOUT the sig!!Thankx buddy...this ugly mess I started has me so mixed up now that I actually started freaking out that my wings comment would start another war :)I should know better as a Canadian never to joke about hockey!(hope they get it, tho, Dom deserves it)michael

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Couldn't have said it any better myself. If I did though, it would have been shorter!! LOL!!!. 100% RIGHT BEHIND YOU!!!!Don

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