Freezing AI aircraft

[Ray Proudfoot 8,963]

Hi Bob,I'm not disputing what you're seeing but this element of RC4 was tested thoroughly during many months of development. What could be at fault are faulty AFCADs that have the hold short points missing or incorrectly placed.I'm investigating Daniel's problem at LIML right now. Once I've established if I can reproduce the problem I'll come back and possibly ask you to supply the AFCAD for PHNL.Cheers,

[ronzie 21]

If you downloaded FSUIPC you should also have Traffic Look. Open this in its seperate window after FS is running and look at both ground and air AI to see if it gives any info about AI that might have any bearing on the AI stalled queue. At high traffic setting look for a "string-of-pearls" on final.I have also had a situation where when opposing taxiways were across a threshold for runway entry and AI were held short across from one another, the AI anticollision system in FS refused to let either move just as if they were nose-to-nose on a taxiway. I just eliminated in AFCAD one of the opposing taxiways and added another start point further up the runway at another taxiway just beyond this one. That cured that problem.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,963]

Hi Bob,I've just tried to reproduce Daniel's problem at LIRF but everything worked as it should.Can you attach the AFCAD for PHNL please and I'll see if I can reproduce the problem. Please provide wind direction and departure runway in use.Are you using default AFCADs or third party ones?Cheers,

[Guest wtsapchy]

Hi Ray,Thanks for your test! But I really do not understand why this only happens to my scenery. I believe you also use the freeware LIRF from ISD. What is your traffic density ? Why would the AI birds in front of you take off normally and those in front of me just got frozen ? If you would notice from my screenshots that I send you, one AI GA and one AI jet disappeared after waiting at the holding point awhile. Clearly, something happened which created a gridlock and so these AI birds disappeared. If I recalled correctly, FS would, by default, make AI planes disappear if they block each other's way and creat a gridlock for more than 5 mins so as to prevent AI planes from queuing up in major taxiways and clotting ground traffic. The frustrating truth was these AI birds behaved normally if my plane was parked at gate. It was only my presence in their vicinity and near the runway holding point that caused the frozen problem.I also turned on Flightkeeper's 'Live Watch' map in my WideFS PC which basically allowed me to look at all AI birds movement on ground and in the air around the airport area. The last time I was stucked near runway holding point at LIRF, there was no 'chain of pearl' in sight near the airport airspace. The 5 screenshots that I sent you, which lasted for more than 20 mins of me queuing near runway holding points, there was not one AI plane landing in sight. Clearly, the traffic was not blocked by incoming landing AI birds. I ran that makerwys.exe and have RC scenery rebuilt everytime before I started RC flight. Whatelse could I do to this Tower to get my plane airborne ? Can anyone out here, in your next RC flight, simply increase your traffic density and see if you would come across this same problem. Hope someone could help !DanielVHHH

[Ray Proudfoot 8,963]

Hi Daniel,Sorry, I'm at a loss as to why it works for me and not you. I can only think it was due to the AFCAD. I sent you mine privately. Have you tried that yet? If it solves the problem then it was your AFCAD.Let me know how you get on.BTW, there's no need to run the scenery d/b update each time you start RC - only when you install or remove scenery.Cheers,

[Guest wtsapchy]

Hi Ray,Thanks for your hardwork ! Okay. Just tried your AFCAD. Here's what I did :1. Rename my original AF2_LIRF_Full.blg to AF2_LIRF.old. No blg extension ensured.2. Copy yours to my scenery folder.3. Run makerwys.exe. Rebuilding r4.csv done.4. Start FS9. Same time, same gate same lds 767.5. Start WideFS, ASV and Flightkeeper at client PC.6. Finally, start 'Show AdvDisplay Text' and RC when all the above programs worked normally.7. Rebuild scenery database. Everything was normal.8. Click Debug, load flightplan and start RCv49. ATIS, CD, Ground. Everthing was normal.10. My plane followed one MD81 AI to 34L runway holding point.11. I was told to monitor Tower on the way to holding point. Tower frequency was tuned.12. MD81 reached holding point at GMT 1540 hrs.13. Waited till GMT 1550 hrs. No AI birds landing, no movement of MD81. Dead silent, dead frozen. Screenshot taken.14. 'Live Watch' map in Flightkeeper monitored. No chain of landing AI seen. A few AI birds found but were far away from LIRF.15. RC quitted.Another zip file was sent to you containing one screenshot, the same flightplan and the debugged log.

[Ray Proudfoot 8,963]

Hi Daniel,Thanks for posting your actions. Nothing appears out of order although you didn't need to run MakeRunways separately from Rebuild Scenery d/b.Looking at the screenshots you've sent me I noticed the aircraft type is shown against the Ai aircraft label rather than their flight numbers. I'm wondering if this might be the problem especially as it happens at more than one airport.Can you open FSUIPC and go to the Miscellaneous tab and change the entry for 'Set TCAS id String from' to Flight please. I assume iyou have it set to 'model'?Just make that one change and report back please. Can you confirm if landing aircraft were referred to by their callsigns correctly? I'm determined to get to the bottom of this.Cheers,

[Guest wtsapchy]

Hi Ray,I checked the FSUIPC. The entry in 'Set TCAS id String from' was already 'Flight'. I also selected 'show aircraft tail number' in FS9 traffic menu which I had not done so before. Then, started a flight from LIRF again. The same gridlock near holding point runway 34L happened. A screenshot was sent to you. I was the First Choice 767.I've observed the AI movement at LIRF and by cross referencing to Flightkeeper 'Live Watch'. I can confirm that they were 100% in consistence and in order. After starting RC and while parting at the gate, landing and taking off at 34L were normal. AI birds stopped and waited at holding point, lined up then took off.I have also done a couple of flights and spent quite a coonsiderable hours observing when these AI birds would freeze with respect to my position. Well, the birds were always normal when I was at parking gate. While taxiing to holding point, I had tried deliberately giving way to some AI birds and stayed where I was at some taxiway junctions until they reached holding points. They waited, lined up and took off as usual, too. At one time, while my plane was more than two-third of the taxiway to 34L holding point, some birds at the holding point could still took off. It was only when I was very close to 34L runway holding point, and apparently most of the time, right before I made that final 90 degree right turn to the holding point, that the AI birds ahead of me, either they were already waiting at the holding point without another AI lining up at runway 34L, or they had already lined up at 34L, then the dead silent freezing occurred. The freezing was also not AI specific. It happened to default AI as well as my installed ProjectAI planes. It happened at default scenery and addon scenery. The freezing appeared distance specific. My close proximately to the AI birds was one cause. That's the best account I could give you.I am also determined to get it fixed. I have been using RC since it was freeware so many years ago and never had encountered such a big problem like this one. Just give me any test flights you could think of and I'll try them. Thanks for your help, anyway.Regards DanielVHHH

[Ray Proudfoot 8,963]

Hi Daniel,So you've established that without running RC4 Ai aircraft take-off as normal at LIRF and when you run RC4 they don't. Good. That points things at RC4.This is the info for LIRF runways extracted from r4.csv...LIRF,0070,41.800117,12.234652,14,69.500,10856,109.70,450,0.500,41.805054,12.252730,0LIRF,0161,41.846413,12.262883,14,161.770,12895,108.10,480,0.500,41.829964,12.269944,0LIRF,0162,41.814991,12.225887,14,161.770,12813,110.30,500,0.500,41.798161,12.233120,0LIRF,0250,41.809483,12.268912,14,249.500,10856,109.70,450,0.500,41.805054,12.252730,1365LIRF,0341,41.783096,12.239700,14,341.770,12813,108.90,500,0.500,41.798161,12.233120,1053LIRF,0342,41.814220,12.276699,14,341.770,12895,109.30,480,0.500,41.829964,12.269944,0I'd like you to open r4.csv (in the DATA folder) with NotePad (not Excel) and compare your data to mine. Pay particular attention to the latitude and longitude values. I suspect yours are going to be different to mine.What I'd also like you to do is plan a flight from a default airport - one that you have no 3rd party scenery for. Please advise if you get any problems there. I suggest you use a reasonably busy airport such as EDDF, KJFK, KORD if able.If you don't get the problem at a default airport then the problem lies with LIRF. Also try a flight from another airport you have 3rd party scenery for and tell me if you get problems there.Finally, please confirm you're running RC4 on the same PC as FS9 and not via WideFS on a separate one.Thanks.

[Guest Captain Dad]

Ray,This same thing happened to me as well - but only once. (I slewed around the plane with the "mechanical difficulties" and took off.)At the larger Intl. airports in FS9 stay away from the main "active" runway like the Plague.Try a parallel runway near the GA parking areas, or even an entirely different runway heading if the winds are negligibleMost Bizjet pilots (with clients in a hurry) will not want to get bogged down waiting for some 757-200 to take off first anyway. Works for me!Captain Dad:

[John Burgess 0]

Hi Daniel and Ray,I just noticed something strange in the runway listings above. For example:LIRF,0070,41.800117,12.234652,14,69.500,10856,109.70,450,0.500,41.805054,12.252730,0The entry 450 (just after the frequency 109.7) is the width of the runway, the actual runway is nowhere near that wide. Is this the freeware ISD scenery you are both using?Daniel, check your r4.csv file and see what the runway widths are for lirf. With an entry like those above RC could well see you as being on the runway when you are holding short close to the runway and that would, I suspect, explain what you are seeing. If yours are that large backup the r4.csv file and change them. Here are my entries:LIRF,0070,41.799488,12.232685,14,69.220,10842,0,148,0.500,41.804489,12.250813,1365LIRF,0161,41.845619,12.261653,14,162.210,12823,108.10,197,0.500,41.829277,12.268475,0LIRF,0162,41.815060,12.226542,14,162.140,12813,110.30,197,0.500,41.798748,12.233383,0LIRF,0163,41.842270,12.259793,14,162.150,11815,108.50,148,0.500,41.827229,12.266068,1969LIRF,0250,41.809464,12.268909,14,249.220,10842,109.70,148,0.500,41.804489,12.250813,0LIRF,0341,41.782433,12.240224,14,342.140,12813,108.90,197,0.500,41.798748,12.233383,1053LIRF,0342,41.812954,12.275297,14,342.210,12823,109.30,197,0.500,41.829277,12.268475,0LIRF,0343,41.812252,12.272379,14,342.150,11815,108.50,148,0.500,41.827229,12.266068,0As you can see the widths I have are either 148 or 197.See if that helps.All the best,John

[Guest wtsapchy]

Hi Ray,I'll check those LIRF figures. I did another test flight from KJFK to KBOS built by FSBuild. KJFK was DEFAULT SCENERY. I was cleared for runway 4L by Ground. Then, I waited at the taxiway junction awhile. Then, an AI Cessna came by and I followed this bird. While approaching holding point, I took the first screenshot, paused FS9 and saved the 01.jpg file. The 01.jpg showed that I was following this AI Cessna. This screenshot was taken right after I was told to monitor Tower and Tower frequency was tuned. You could see from 01.jpg that at this moment, another AI had just lined up and took off from runway 4L. Everything still appeared normal at that time. Then, the AI Cessna moved to the holding point. I waited for about 2-3 minutes. One AI GA landed. That's fine and accounted for the hold. Then, the landing GA taxi away from runway 4L. Then, the dead silent freezing began. After about 5-7 mins, the AI Cessna was still at the holding point. Not one word given by Tower. I took another screenshot. Another AI had already queued up behind me. RC quitted.I just sent you another zip file containing the screenshots, the flightplan and the debugged log.I'll check those LIRF coordinates but that could not account for why my problem existed in my default scenery, too. Besides, if that width figure of runway 34L was wrong, why didn't the problem occur in Ray's LIRF departure flight ?RegardsDanielVHHH

[Guest wtsapchy]

Hi Ray,Here's mine from LIRF.LIRF,0070,41.800117,12.234652,14,69.500,10856,109.70,450,0.500,41.805054,12.252730,0LIRF,0161,41.846413,12.262883,14,161.770,12895,108.10,480,0.500,41.829964,12.269944,0LIRF,0162,41.814991,12.225887,14,161.770,12813,110.30,500,0.500,41.798161,12.233120,0LIRF,0250,41.809483,12.268912,14,249.500,10856,109.70,450,0.500,41.805054,12.252730,1365LIRF,0341,41.783096,12.239700,14,341.770,12813,108.90,500,0.500,41.798161,12.233120,1053LIRF,0342,41.814220,12.276699,14,341.770,12895,109.30,480,0.500,41.829964,12.269944,0Pretty much the same !RegardsDanielVHHH

[Ray Proudfoot 8,963]

Hi Daniel,I'm at work so I can't check my pm. However, if you're getting these problems at default airports then something is clearly wrong.I don't think the width of the runways is significant because I don't get any problems at LIRF with the ISD scenery. Nor do I get problems anywhere else.Have you had ANY successful flights with RC4? I'm wondering if the simplest solution might be to deinstall and reinstall. This type of problem is not being reported by other users so I wonder if you might have a corrupt install.Cheers,

[Ray Proudfoot 8,963]

Hi Capt,<>You shouldn't have to. RC4 has been thoroughly tested to cope with multiple aircraft at the holding point. The only time I might use another parallel runway is if I'm short of time. If you're using alternative runways for the same reason then fine.<>The size of the aircraft has to be taken into account of course. Flying jets - 737s and upwards - is not an option for short runways. Anyway, I'm not the one having the problems ;-) As one of the team I'm well used to knowing the alternatives.Cheers,