60North

Thanks VegaSS !M

Hard to comment on aircraft I didn't make, but one source of stability problems for sure is on aircraftthat use artificial stability. You use it for stuff like yawdampers, or aircraft that fly at extreme speeds,are extremely light and such. Anyway, it's a can of worms if you don't know what you are doing. Take the default C172 as an example.Apparently he has set everything to 0, but he set "This highspeed system is in use above 1 kt".I would have set that to 9999 kts instead - just to be 100% sure it is dead. Probably nothing though.

Think I once answered it as well :rolleyes:The short answer is YES, but your question is kind of irrelevant and I'll show you why.As you say, these vortex generators change the stall/high AoA characteristics of the wing. Now, lets talk a bit about the X-Plane wing:In X-Plane and real, the wing is separated into 2 entity's1. We have the physical 3D wing. It's has an area, span, sweep, dihedral, incidence, chords etc. that the sim uses for various calculations.2. Now, if you take a thin slice of a real 3D wing, you would see something like this;In X-Plane you would also see something like this, we call it an Airfoil. You can now imagine a tiny vortex generator sitting on top of one of those wings front edge.HOWEVER, X-Plane does NOT use this 2D shape to determine it's aerodynamic properties.Why not?Because it's just too impractical. The designer would have to move around thousands or millions of tinynodes in 3D to make a complete 3D wing and STILL the airfoil shape would be linear between the dots...!In addition it would probably give a severe FPS hit!So, instead X-Plane describes the airfoils mathematically like this;http://www.xplanefre...ten/DIV/afl.jpgRed= drag, green=lift, yellow= pitching moment. AoA increases to the right (x-axis).So to model your vortex generator, I would alter this airfoil by changing the curvessomething like the fat lines I put in (just an example).Now, I COULD also add a bunch of little physical objects/wings on top of the 3D wing and alsoget some kind of vortex generator effect, but that would probably not be very accurate and become an aerodynamicalmess. But in theory it could be done. X-Plane models downwash etc from one object/wing to another.In addition, should you find real airfoil data of wings with vortex generators, the effect of those would be INCLUDEDin them, so no need to worry about them in that case either (only visually).The airfoil method will give you the result you need B)M

Nice!Austin in the news list yesterday;

You can adjust the stall characteristics by altering the airfoils in AirfoilMaker.It actually annoy's me that Austin doesn't fix the flightmodel on the default aircraft or quality checks them better.Atleast the GA's which millions of people fly in real. In the old days, the core flightmodel was updated all the time sotrying to keep a flightmodel up to date at all times then was an impossible job. But since v9 it has been pretty stable,and the individual aircraft should atlleast be close in the beginning of a version run.I havnt flown any of the default GA types in real, if I had I'd fix them so we didn't get these posts all the time - whichmost likely are correct observations. The sad part is that the sim gets blamed for sloppy aircraft design and bad quality control.M

This will get sorted (I hear) when the new scenery tools arrive. You'll be able to make taxi routes onyour local airports. Using "normal" aircraft as AI can also cause disasters if the designerdid a sloppy job in PlaneMaker.M

Again, this depends on the designer :(http://www.xplanefre...en/MOV/1eng.m4v(1 eng takeoff at Max TO thrust)M

You are correct in that the elevator is too effective. Most likely a combination lack of enough turbulent downwash on the tail and damping.However, the fix is a combination of adding gyration (inerta) and making the elevator less effective (many ways to do)This will give less pitch acceleration. XP 10 now has wing flex, but I'm not sure if it's just visual or ifit gives a damping effect, havnt tested yet. But that would be good news.M

Those are easy fixes Bernt...M

You know VERY well I didn't mean YOU are an 18 yo punk, so you take that statementout of context on purpose. Read the first sentence of your own initial post again;(The rest of your post doesn't even deserve a quote.) As you can see, you knew even BEFORE you hit the "post" button that the content of your post would provoke bigtime.In other words you INTENTIONALLY did the opposite of what you (hopefully) do in your daily work at Henderson, NV PD whichis being diplomatic and respect people with another opinion/background than you.M

I'll tell you why!Historicaly XP is a very small community with a much higher average user age (cost 200$ about ten years ago)XP was originally designed as an aerodynamics engineering tool more than a simulator "game". I'm an engineer and I'vebeen working on flightmodels in XP for over 12 years. Currently I develop at IXEG where everyone are engineers and pilots. Everyonehave there been involved with X-Plane development and Laminar for over a decade. X-Plane has been my hobby for 12 years. Most of us old timers have in one way or another been actively directly or indirectly involved in XP's evolution and made it what it is today. (and I don't mean just addons)X-Plane offcourse isn't perfect. Do you really think we need a 14 year old FS'er that tried the demo for 10 minutes to tell us that??We have been tweaking and improving X-Plane for over a decade, and we'll probably do so for the next decade as well.It is part of what X-Plane is! X-Plane isn't just about flying, it is as much about BEING CREATIVE! We don't have hugecommercial companies that makes everything for us, scenery, aircraft, addons - we have always had to do everything ourself! EVERYTHING!Maybe 2% of everything ever made for XP is payware! The rest is freeware made by idiots like myself!So, it ####### us off when some 18 yo punk or comes in here and tells us that we have waisted the last 10+ years of our lives and that we don'tknow how an aircraft should perform and that the other sim is much better in every way. Because thats BS!And XP is not "just a game", X-Plane is also a hobby that some of us are passionate about, a great engineering tool, a trainer, and a fantasticwaist of time!So yes we will defend it from ignorance and "first impression" rants like yours which are counter productive, demotivating,intentionally exaggerated and unfair to a community which up until now mostly is driven by freeware contributions.In addition, there is a huge commercial FS industry present in this forum that has financial interests in X-Plane NOT succeedingsince they have large investments in FS that will get lost if the users jump ship. So some here also have an agenda.So it's posts like yours that are a threat to simulator diversity in general - and yes that ####### me off.M

May I suggest opening a RANT section in these forums where we can put all these endless destructive topicsso that the creative and constructive ones left can have some peace ENJOYING our hobby without being accusedof who-knows-what just because one happens to like a sim the majority doesn't?M

Nothing.. the aircraft controls were calibrated for that joystick setting - full realism (0%) , linear (25%).M

I do too, but that doesn't mean it cant be fixed - and in most cases in XP it can.Annoying for sure - but that doesn't mean XP's flightmodel is off.M

Try this;http://forums.x-plane.org/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=8870(Set joystick at default sensitivity settings)M

Good post LA.I'm an engineer with real flying experience and have been making flightmodels for X-Plane for over 10 years.Here are the facts;- Most of the default aircraft are way off on performance.- 90% of the other aircraft out there the same.Why?1. Because of lack of knowledge on the designer or lack of information on the aircraft.2. The default Radii of Gyration (inertia) constants which most designers use are way off and need to be custom set.3. Elevator efficiency which is too high and need to be accounted for by the designer.These are the most common mistakes.In adition, the best designers use plugins to adjust the core flightmodel in areas it need slight adjusting.So, in theory there is nothing one can't fix in XP. When our 737 is done, I'll prove it to you B)Apparently there are a few that give the impression of being flightmodel "experts" in here so instead oftalking nonsense about things that are off and cant be fixed, open PlaneMaker and FIX IT!M

At the moment I'm doing the XPFW airliners which we at XPFW have made over the past 10 years.To make a library of GA's you would need to ask each designer for permission if you intend to make it public (I've only made one GA)For personal use you can offcourse "fix" any aircraft you want. However, to get them really optimized, ok looking and well performing you need toknow your way around planemaker and photoshop.M

Try these;http://www.ixeg.net/files/XPFWAI.zipIt's 3 highly modified B747-400's. (only livery is different)Add a bunch, like 10-15 of them as AI aircraft.Then try with the same situation with the same amount of the default 747 United aircraft.Personally I get about DOUBLE the framrate sitting on the rwy at KSEA on my iMac (i5), but I guess that depends on alot of factors...Let me know how it goes..Cheers,M

Both sims have the potential to create very accurate flightmodels.XP however has much more detailed and complex aerodynamics model which requiresa lot more from the designer and knowledge about the aircraft one is making. Thus thereare a lot of not very well performing aircraft out there.The new generation payware XP aircraft use flightmodel plugins where we adjust the coreflightmodel and tailor it to match the aircraft we are making.You will be amazed...trust me..

Just a reminder to everyone, when XP v9 was released, there was 29 (!) beta's and release candidates over a periodof about 4 months before v9.00 went final. So yes, expect things to have improved in a couple of months

He said his aircraft DOES NOT bounce... (meaning he wants it to bounce.. ) M

You need to explain what you mean by this, real aircraft certainly don't "bounce" when you turn the yoke..M

One has to take these screenshots for what they are. They are just pieces of a huge puzzlethat no-one - not even Laminar - has seen fully assembled. Not even the default airport is complete yet!Drawing any conclusions one way or the other at this stage is pointless. Lets talk again around version 10.2...

FS AI planes have a flightmodel..?

Treeline depends on how far North you are, gets lower further North.Here in southern Norway it is 900-1200m, up north it is 0m..Also there is less trees as you get closer to the coast