pouldam

Allow me to chime in...We all know that FSX is very CPU bound and I think that may explain why the ATi guy does not see a reduction in FPS when flying near clouds; his FSX is configured so that he gets very low FPS (around 10-15) no matter what weather he is flying in. So from his test:"Framerate near ground 10 - 11fps or so"Low framerate because the CPU is the bottleneck (probably too much AI, autogen etc.)."Framerate in sky 15 - 20ish"Higher framerate because he is now clear of the airport with all its jetways, vehicles and stuff."Framerate going through clouds 12 - 15fps"Slightly lower framerate as the CPU is also being loaded a little more in clouds.Thus, this test is bottlenecked more or less by the CPU and does not reveal any shortcomings of the GPU.Just a theory.../ Cheers, Poul

Hi guys,I am eagerly monitoring this thread as I reecently bought a 3870 and am experiencing the same issue... sigh.I have not had the time to conduct experiments the way you have so please continue to keep this thread public or at least post valuable conclusions and thoughts here.Thank you for your effort./ Regards, Poul

Very interesting thread!It really sounds like a mind-blowing experience -- and an inexspensive upgrade! So no doubt I will try it out.... just got to get hold of a pair of glasses. Does anybody know of a web shop located in Europe (just to speed up things)?My biggest concern is performance though. Will this half your framerate as two images has to be rendered for each frame?/ Regards, Poul

FWIW, I have found that locking the frame rate at an even divisor of the screen refresh rate helps with the stuttering -- e.g. if your screen refresh rate is 60 Hz (like most LCDs) you would lock the frame rate at 20 or even better 30 FPS./ Cheers, Poul

Hi Ray,Wow, that was quite a performance setback with the 8.3! I will surely try the 8.2 as my card could use that extra juice when flying in heavy clouds. Apart from that I am really satisfied with my switch from NVidia (and I believe NVidia also has a hard time when it gets really really cloudy).Regarding the tearing in windowed mode, please remember that I am also on XP. So if it works for you I am convinced that I should be able to get it working too... puzzled as I am though.In ATT, what have you set the "wait for vertical sync" setting to? Have you added any of these two lines to your FSX.CFG: ForceFullScreenVSync=TrueForceVSync=TrueI have read that they should not work with FSX SP2 (you are using SP2, right)?Thanks a lot for helping out here!/ Cheers, Poul... who is off to an IVAO flight :-D

Hi Ray,Thanks for the info.I am already using the lastest beta of Ray Adams' ATi Tray Tool (a brilliant one by the way). The Omega drivers I found were from January IIRC and based on the 7 series of drivers. I tried them, but without success regarding the tearing, so I thought that I would rather stick to the new 8.3. And this is where things start to get interesting as you suggest sticking to the 8.2. What are the benefits of using this older version?/ Cheers and enjoy the Easter, Poul

Hi,FWIW I promised to post my experience with my new HD 3870 card here. I received it last Friday and have spend quite some time messing with it -- coming from the NVidia world (7900GS 256 MB) I had to figure out how the drivers work, which utilities are must haves etc.The card is the "Toxic" model from Sapphire which shines by only taking up one slot, being slightly overclocked from the factory and sports a "vapor-x" cooler that is pretty silent.As suggested in this thread I only downloaded and installed the raw driver from ATi and then installed the free light weight ATi Tray Tool utility for configuration purposes. I must say this works like a charm and is much nicer and more intuitive to use compared to NVidia's control panel and NHancer.The graphics in FSX is now much nicer than before! However, I doubt this is solely because of the ATi brand on the box, but more likely because of the increased horse power and ability to crank up the settings. Things look really good and I lock my frames at 25 with middle to high settings in FSX (exact same FSX settings amd frame rate lock as with the 7900). The GPU monitor normally shows a load in the range 50-80% -- in heavy clouds this gets maxed out though.So, at the end of the day I am a happy camper and very satisfied with the purchase except from one major issue -- the issue that actually made me upgrade in the first place: The lack of VSYNC in windowed mode. VSYNC can be forced on in full screen, but I just cannot make it work in windowed mode (I need windowed mode to use my two monitors). I even tried the older Omega drivers as suggested in this thread, but to no avail. As I would like to actually try to complete a flight from A to B one day in the sim, I have now given up and try to get to love the tearing that MS has forced upen on with the service packs....A remaining issue I have yet to solve is to figure out how to force my monitor's refresh rate to 50 Hz. The reason is that stutters (most obvious in turns) is heavily reduced if the framerate is locked at a fraction of the refresh rate -- this counts for both full screen with VSYNC enabled and windows mode. As I run my sim locked at 25 FPS I need a refresh rate of 50 or 75 -- something that I have not yet been able to achieve even though the ATi Tray Tool has a feature that suggests this should be possible./ Cheers, PoulWindows XP SP2 (regularly patched and polished)FSX AccelerationIntel E6600 @ 3450 MHzSapphire Radeon Toxic HD 38702 GB memory2 LCDs (22" + 17")

Hi Ray,Thanks for spending time on this issue. Funnily enough, no more than 10 minutes ago I thought to myself "what the heck" and ordered a Sapphire Toxic HD3870. I am really excited to see if it eliminates the tearing (and thereby the lurking headache), but according to your experience there may be light at the end of the tunnel.Being unfamiliar with ATi I would like a piece of advice of what to install when the card arrives. On the ATi web site I see two packages: A driver package and a Catalyst Software Suite. The latter is rather large and if it only adds zillions of useless applications I would rather avoid bloating my system and stick to the driver package. However, I guess I need to be able to adjust AA, AF, multi monitor setup, vsync etc. -- is that possible by only installing the driver package?Finally, any idea at what level should I be able to set AA and AF without wasting FPS?Once again thanks a lot. I will post my experience later this week./ Cheers, Poul

Hi again,I have now tried runnnig FSX in windowed mode with the TrackIR disabled - alas, no still tearing when panning left to right vice versa.Also tried using only one monitor, but it is still tearing.Ray, have you had the time to verify your setup? Are you sure that you do not have any tearing in the VC in windowed mode?/ Cheers, Poul

Hi Ray,I will try to disable my TrackIR when I get home from work, although I have difficulty seeing how it could be the culprint. However, I do belive that the tearing may be more obvious when using the TrackIR as the viewpoint is constantly moving (a little) -- no matter how little you try move your head.I use the default refresh rate of 60 Hz on my 22" LCD (having tried others as well), but the tearing is still there.I agree that this is most likely a driver issue (or a bug in FSX if all users experience the same?) as VSYNC seems to work OK in fullscreen. However, fullscreen prevents me from using both my monitors at the same time and also reduces FPS, so it is important to repeat that what we are discussing here is fullscreen behaviour.Ray, when you get in front of FSX, please try to do some fast horisontal pannings and tell me if your experience any tearing (others are obviously more than welcome to chime in). If it is a driver issue and ATi do not have this problem, I will gladly buy a new card to get a working driver./ Cheers, Poul

Hi Ray,Thanks for your input!Starting from the bottom, I have just been reading Phil Taylors interesting blog about gfx cards and doing some other research. If I decide to switch to ATi I think I will settle for the HD3870 and mount an Artic Accelero S1 passive cooler which should be sufficient. This card seems like a nice middle-of-the-road solution which I believe will also give a tiny performance boost compared to my NVidia 7900GS.However, the VSYNC issue is my biggest concern. Without VSYNC enabled I get really bad tearing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tearing) of the image when panning/looking around (using TrackIR). If going for more than a short VFR ride this occasionally leads to headache. Thus, I am really surprised if you fly with VSYNC disabled!? Unless, of course, that FSX internally enables it by default for ATi cards (you lucky b....) ;-)If it does, expect to see a 7900GS very soon on eBay.../ Cheers and thanks for looking into this, Poul

Hi all you helpful people,Interesting thread! I am the owner of an NVidia 7900GS with 256 MB RAM. I have two issues that really really bugger me, and I would like to know whether ATI owners experience the same (or if any NVidia owners have a fix for these):1. VSync does not work in WINDOWED mode. I've tried a lot of driver versions and played around with NHancer... alas, I have never been able to got it working. Would an ATI card solve my problem?2. In heavy cloud conditions, e.g. overcast, my FPS takes a heavy drop. I guess NVidia may be just as good as ATI in this department, but will a speedier card improve this -- knowing that FSX is CPU bound?Bonus questions:1. Does ATI support the use of two monitors in the same way as NVidia's "dual mode" -- allowing you to run FSX on one monitor and other applications on the other?2. Are passively cooled (no fan) ATI cards available in the fast range (I know NVidia's 8800GT exists in a fanless version)?Any input is highly appreciated -- I would love to get the vsync issue fixed before Easter :-)Windows XP SP2FSX Acceleration (SP2)Intel E6600 @ 3400 MHzNVidia 7900 GS 256 MB2 GB memory

Ulf and Nick,Thanks for your input. However, Ulf, you confirmed my worst fear that VSYNC does not work in windowed mode -- at least not with my NVidia 7900GS even though I followed Nick's NHancer guide to the letter. As I really need my second monitor (running in Dual View mode) for my charts, there is no way I can run in full screen.This leads me to the sad conclusion that my marriage with NVidia has come to an end. IF ATI does not have this bug, that is!Any experience with the cocktail of ATI, WinXP, FSX Acceleration and two monitors in "dual view" configuration (I have no idea what ATI has named their variant of this useful feature)?Any input is really appreciated....ah, it worked so very nicely in FSX RTM. Now the tearing is giving me headache before I reach cruise altitude :-hmmm/ Regards, Poul

Hi Ulf,Yes, I also tried adding these lines, but alas... still no success :-(I tried to install the 174.20 drivers today, but that did not fix it. Maybe they only got it working in the 174.12?That said, it seems as if I can get it working in full screen, but that is not really an option as that halves my FPS and prevents me from using my other monitor for charts etc.This leads me to two questions for you who have got VSYNC working:1. Does it work in windowed mode?2. Do you have a multi (two) monitor setup?Thanks for helping here guys!/ cheers, PoulWinXP, FSX Acceleration, C2D, TrackIR, 7900GS

Hi Geoff,Very interesting! I have not been able to make vsync work -- WinXP, FSX Acceleration, 7900GS. Tried several drivers and using NHancer and all kinds of incantations.Which driver version solves it for you? Does it work in windowed mode?/ Cheers, Poul