garsands

I agree 100% with the OP you chose the path you want to take with MS Flight you make it as real as you want it to be.But it's not all going to be there from day one.So for you guys that keep on knocking MS Flight no big deal you will still be playing FSX so no rush.

Oh how your going to laugh at me with this one.Sorry it's a long post & goes on abit. full of spelling errors ect.SoIs the addon niche market about to boom?I ask this qustion because I have just started & enjoying FSX 10 months ago so I am a new FSX Simmer.So I started to think why did I start to play FSX why now it's been out for 6 years I have know about it for 6 years.I am 39 years old & when reading posts from FSX forums I seening things like 'my grandchildren, retirement, at my age, I am 60+ ect, dont like silly shoot um up games like BF3 ect.Then I look at your profile pictures & avatars not just on this forum but other FSX fan forums, well alot of you hardcore FSX simmers the ones that buy 3PD software are over 40.So I ask myself Why is this?Why is it the older players that like the hardcore side of FSX?Why at the age of 39 have I at last thought about buying FSX? I have know about it for 6 years.I bought MS Flight Simulator for Windows 95 back in 1996 played it for a few days even bought the MS book & that was it, so why now at the age of 39 do I now enjoy playing FSX?I am enjoying it so much that I am now taking the time to post on this Flight sim forum & have spent £150 on 3PD software I was about to spend £300 on hardware yoke, rudder ect to use with FSX.So what's changed why has something just clicked that made me now enjoy FSX?Two friends of mine both aged 45 started to use FSX about 5 years ago & use 3PD software they would have both been 40 when they frist started to us FSX & both are still using it.So that's three of us that both started to play FSX at the age of around 40.So is this why....I would put myself into a large & lucky group of FIRST generation computer gamers this is way.Here is a history of my computer gaming life.1982 - I had a ZX Spectrum Home Computer to play games on. I was age 10The Spectrum was among the FIRST mainstream home computers in the UK bring the FIRST GAMES to the mainstream audience.1990 - I had a nintendo nes games console. I was age 181991 - I had a Amiga 500 Home Computer to play games on. I was age 191994 - I had my first PC to play games on. I was age 22 (100Mz) DX4 something something I think 4mb of RAM)My First PC game was Doom released a year before. Doom was one of the first main FPS.So I was luckly to be a child age of 10 when the first Home Computer to play games in colour came out.The First home gaming console were released....The nintendo nes was released in 1985 They sold 61.91 million (I was 13 good age for gaming)The Sega Mega Drive was released in 1989 They sold around 40.9 million (I was 17 good age for gaming with your mates around)So When I was a teenager the first GAME consoles & Amiga Home computers came on the scene.And in turn the FIRST generation of computer/console game players are born, & here we are now at the age of 35-45 all grown up & we want something new to fill in the space of silly computer games.I have come here from a gaming forum because I have been a gamer for the last 30 years & I like computers & I like computer games, but I am bored of playing silly games I have been for the last 5 years.On a gaming forum I read posts from people around my age starting threads saying they are fed up with playing games & don't know what to do to replace this gap that games would leave, but they don't want to stop using computers.Now why are we bored of silly games the same type of games we have always been playing?Because We have seen it all before theres nothing new for us 30 years on.Games now just seem that same as the last BF1,BF2,BF3, GTA1,GTA2,GTA3,GTA4,GTA5, ME1,ME2 the list goes on.Warcraft is in its what 5th upgrade.99% of games now are just new improved copys of a 16 year old game. But with a new skin on the top.They are even releasing remakes of 10+ year old games.One game that has tried to break the mould is L.A. Noire. so hats off to them.As you get older you no longer want to play games like the younger generation are playing now, the ones you used to play you now find then silly & borning.Just like you would not get a toy car out and start playing with it on the floor we grow up we no longer enjoy the things we use to as we get older.But we the FIRST generation do like to see things move forward we like things that use the most of new tech it's what's been keeping us going for the last 30 years we don't like things that stand still we like to move forward we are use to that.One of the things that keeps some away from FSX is it does not run well I have held off spending £300 last year on FSX 3PD.MS Flight as we know will be free to download good move people can try it & see it no longer runs at a low FPS there's a no risk test.Make what you want off what I have said.BUT one ture FACT that I do know & that's at 39 & two friends at 40 both got drawn to FSX & buying 3PD software at around the same age.I am sure MS already know this.Is there a huge market out there ready to join you guys in your hobby & they are not childern they are from the FIRST generation computer gamers aged 40+ & we have the money burning a hole in our pockets ready to spend on addons.Steam (a online site that sales games) have just had a winter sale & the amount of gamers that spend £100 on games & never play then. I have just done the same. £85 spent on 21 one games I will never play half of them I will never finsh 99% of them. But it's a game I need to spend money on games.We seem to buy games like woman buy shoes we buy lots but only use them for a day then never again. We can spend that money on addons we already have the money.Is the past a niche market of addons & now the 1st FIRST generation of computer gamers are just catching up with you. I keep on hearing MS Flight has been built for kids as that's there main market & kids don't want to buy addons & they will get bored of it, well good but you your forgetting us the BIG KIDS the 40 year olds that have been gaming for the last 30 years & now want a new more mature form of gaming entertainment.We are looking to join a mature community we want to join the skys with mature people & not play shoot up's with foul language kids we are fed up with that but that's all we have at the moment.It's nice here on this forum you are all polite & so very loyal.MS know what they are doing they are forward thnking.The FSX market must be growing why else would obix be plaining to make double the amount of Airports this year & start making scenery of the UK?John V has already said 'MS sold so many copies of FSX on the back of third party development that they actually ran out of registration keys and had to remaster new CDs for retail outlet'Computer gaming is part of the entertianment market we 40 year olds need our computer entertiantment we have had it for the last 30 years, but we dont want silly games anymore we are looking for something new something mature.There are 100's 1000's of games we have enjoyed left in the past that have been made for as for the last 30 years, as we follow the gaming path but now at the age of 40 we have hit a brick wall now where do we go?Is MS flight our new path what else is there for us?When you get older you enjoy the finer things with FSX I enjoy the learning experience I find it very rewarding. Doing everythng the way it's ment to be done no cheating. But I don't need to tell you that you have been doing it for years (so full respect to you all)Now I am not saying a million 40+ year olds are about to join MS Flight but I am saying there is a new market share waiting to be tapped. Sure MS know this.Why do older people play FSX & why they enjoy it so much, why don't they play the games that kids play?Theres a lot of more gamers reaching 40 every year from now on. So every year the mature gaming community will grow.MS understand this?Now that was one crazy post. Just a crazy thought.But what I do know is I am bored on playing the same game's for the last 16 year's I am ready for something new.Any spelling errors ect sorry you have to live with them.Something missing from my little brain on that side of things.Took me a painful 2 hours just to write the above.

No I just support my posts with proof that's all.Again look at the leaked vidoes of MS Flight beta.Then look at the images from the MS Flight website.To help you out I have posted a few below for you.Sorry about the very poor quality of them.

So wrong & misleading And so right.I have done beta testings three time's in the past (not MS) & every time they add new features as time goes on.Why do they do this?They want you to test the hell out of the basic program the core/engine first to see if there are any problems with it.If there are any bugs with it they will fix thoses problems first as this could have a follow on inpact on the next wave of features they give you. It makes it easyer for them to manage the bugs.If you are telling me that the beta testers are testing the full finshed game then why is it when I have seen the leaked youtube videos of MS Flight beta does it look nothing graphicly like the videos on the MS flight site?I don't understand why people can't see what has been shown in front of them.Beta video of MS Flight.vMS video of MS Flight.Look at the screen shots of MS Flight on the MS Flight site. Are you telling me that they look the same quality?The evidence is there in front of you just a google search away if you have not seen the youtube videos or MS Flight ones.

In 6 years time could they be saying the same about MS Flight.they will never move to FS Flight and now they love it... :(

I you stop & listen to what they are saying then you will understand.

How do you know they dumped ALL of the developer community?A thread has just been locked due to some of the developer community publicly falling out with each other over what we are starting to hear from them.Some have come out to say that THEY the ones saying stuff DO NOT represent the WHOLE developer community.And have told them to basiclaly shut up.One developer has shown his hatred to MS publicly on this forum & is one of the FEW that we have heard from about being dumped.There is two sides to every story,We are not going to hear from ANY of developer community IF there is ANY that have joined MS Flight team.As they MAY have been told to not say anything.

First I will start off by repeating myself.I am not Blaming third party developers for the way MS Flight has turn out If I was the thread title would read.third party developers ARE to be blamed for the way Flight has ended up.I am NOT looking for someone to blame.I am asking questions.Going to recap.I asked the question below in my opening post. I then post this quote for John Venema Orbx CEOSource is herehttp://www.orbxsystems.com/forum/topic/36939-prepar3d/page__view__findpost__p__321787He is talking about his plans with Orbx software & Prepar3D for companies who will use FTX to make profit from it (it being Orbx software)I then ask the same question again and I get null reply.I was also then told that third party developers make very little from the software they make for FSX.The above quote shows the true amount that FSX software is being sold for, that seems a bit more then very little money.John has also said in this thread that he has already sold software at the above prices.The point of they don't have to as that's not how business works has been removed due to Orbx charging there commercial customers extra as they willbe making a profit from orbx software.You can't have it both ways. Questions.Have you turned MS FSX software addons into a commercial business?Or are you a small group of FSX fans making some addons for free or for bit of beer money?Are you now a MS FSX commercial customer using there software to make a profit from it & not some beer money?You are now selling this software to your commercial customers at a commercial price as they are then going to charge there customers a fee to use it & in turn make money from it.Questions.What does MS get out of this deal?Is this how MS FSX intended there SDK to be used?As a commercial customer you only paid MS the retail price of FSX for the SDK same as the enthusiast/hobby market.But as a commercial customer should you not be paying MS alot more for it a commercial price for the SDK? as you are making money from it & not just beer money.Same deal as you do with your commercial customers?You have said it yourself I am confused am I missing something here?I have only read up to post 171 so far as I am short of time but will read rest later.I am learning all the time.As the thread title readsthird party developers to be blamed for the way Flight has ended up? Have some turned the use of the SDK into a commercial business?Just asking.I will cover your points about the third party developers making FSX what is today & have kept people playing it, later I have not forgoten.I only post what I have learnedI only ask questions.I am not blaming anyoneAny answers to questions that I post I support with quotes or the Source of the answer.I am not accusing anyone of anything just asking questions.

I in turn find it insulting that you find the need to say this about MS John without MS you would not have been able to make FSX software to sale & to sale many commercial licenses atRegions @ $4000 eachAustralia @ $7,000Airports @ $2,500 each

YES I really think they can.A lot of people seem to think the third party developers are some sort of wizards who are the only ones in the world that can make such things.

Stephen.I agree with you 100% & think the same 100% as your post.I just can't put into words aswell as your opening post.I think anyone who thinks MS needs the FSX third party developers are wrong this is MS they can employ other designers FSX third party developers are not the only people in the world who can make this stuff.Again I look at that Battleship in the port that was not done without the help of third party developers that was done in house & it looks better then anything I have seen before on FSX.Did MS really need the third party developers in the first place I don't think so, I think they wanted to give them a chance to join MS before MS Flight took the FSX user base away & there money.But alot of people think that without them Flight will fail.I also believe that the third party developers 3 big players are now running scared, why the need for the Forum posts about them & flight why did Prepar3D feel the need to say the words 'and trying not to sound defensive!'Well you are.But I am not expecting everything to happen on the first day but alot of the FSX fans will, hell some even think that the leaked beta videos of flight is the final product & are saying how bad the textures look.MS made FSX, MS made Flight that's good for me.

It also take's away the belief that third party developers are poor & make very little from the sale of software. On the back of FSX that MS get nothing in return.And Orbx feel hard done by.

So making $100,000 profit from $112,000 is not greed.We make the best software if you want it that's the price if you don't you can go else where, oh hang on there's no where else for you to go.It's the fact Orbx is thinking about it, thinking about being greedy, Llikelyhood of ONE say or not.Now wonder why they are upset that they are not able to join MS Flight the IP right's half the story?Perhaps this commericial account will install 500 copies, Perhaps not.

Is this greedOrbx have plans to sale there software to the commercial customer for the prices listed below.Regions $4000 eachAustralia $7,000Airports $2,500 eachThis software has already been made & is in use on there customers home computers.So this could be a 95% profit deal all 40 items total $112,000.$100,000 profit?What would the expenses be?Greed?

I agree

Ron you seem to enjoying this thread.If I can quote you here Can you please explain the below to me as I am confused.Why are Orbx planing to sell there addons to commercial customers at a cost of $112,000 if they want all 40? Thats to ONE customer.They say they are charging a higher price because the commercial customer will make money from the Orbx software.Is that not what Orbx has been doing off the back of MS FSX for the last 6 years? But they don't give anything back to MS.But Orbx want's money back from the commercial customers & is going to.But I have been told that Orbx don't have to give MS any money as that's not how business works & I am told about car venders & such.I will post more later short of time as always.

First off in my opening post I am not trying to blame anyone for the root that MS Flight has taken.If I was the thread title would have been 'third party developers ARE to be blamed for the way Flight has ended up'As some one posted at the start mine told me the same.She also told me This is why I started this Thread to ask this question. I don't know much about this if I did I would not have made this thread.I don't know how much 3rd third party developers make for addons, I would not expect them to tell me it's none of my business.I don't know how many copy's of FSX have been sold.I don't Know the % of users that buy addons.Nor have I claimed to.But what I do know is that something has gone wrong with the path that MS Flight has taken & it saddens me.We are here posting on this forum because we are passionate & have strong feelings about FSX.I also know that FSX with 3rd third party addons REX, Orbx, PMDG, ATC looks beautiful, stunning, amazing many of a time I have thought to myself WOW.But then I look at the FPS & it takes alot of the joy away.Then I look at the MS Flight screen shot's and it's WOW again that battle ship in the port! the shadows! the FPS what I have read 60FPS.Yes we can have all that but on one island, but we also know eye candy is only half of what FSX.Then I think this could be done anywhere in the whole world & it's there locked away in MS Flight ready to be used but NO.That battle ship in the port! that's better then any addon I have seen made for FSX not the fault of the third party developers as they can only use what FSX can give them.I then think put MS Flight in the hands of Orbx & what they could come up with. WOW again but that's not going to happen.This quote I am no expert & don't claim to be but I am learning.I find this comment about my post strange but all I see over the forums, youtube comments, ect is 100's of simmers blaming MS for the root flight has taken. blame game you say?I am not looking to blame anyone I am on no one's side I just want MS Flight to work don't we all? Reading 100's of negative comments about MS Flight I am not so sure.So much so simmers feel the need to use this M$ why so negative, they gave you FSX.I also know that FSX is not going to get any better anytime soon when it come's to FPS 10GHz CPU anyone? 10 years time? what are we at now 5.2GHz it's taken 2+ years to go up 1GHz.Last note what no flamming of my OP? I was expecting the worse!I took a risk starting this thread as I was not sure how well it would be taken, also not the best thread to start when it was my 1st post here.I thank you. I have learnt a bit more.

Guys I have not read any of the above yet as I don't have any free time at the moment but I will later.Not sure if I want to as not sure how well my thoughts have gone down.But please remember I am only putting a thought out & trying to think out of the box.I understand you are big fans & supporters of FSX just like me & I really want this whole new FSX (flight) thing to work.I want to play FSX at 60+ FPS using new tech dont we all, but someting is just not right something has gone wrong.I could have just sat back & not made my post but as I feel strongly about this I took a risk & put my thoughts out.This topic started over at OcUK Forums starts from post #106http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18243797

Are the 3rd third party developers to be blamed for the way Flight has ended up?At the moment do third party developers pay MS flight any fees from the profit they make on addons for FSX?I ask as I have paid MS £20 for FSX & that's all, but I have paid third party developers over £150 some of you have paid £500+So why should MS only get £20 but third party developers get £150 from me?If it was not for FSX the third party developers would not get any money they are only able to make money off the back of MS.If I started a new business & my business model showed that I am going to be making less money then the third party developers using MY software I would be called crazy is this how FSX works at the moment?Here are a few quotesFrom John Venema Orbx CEO From from PMDG So MS Flight started as a 'modest proposal' & even went to a 'resurgent FSX replacement'So what happened? did MS then tell the third party developers we now want a cut of all the sales of addons from the money you make off the back of OUR software? & they said no thanksHere is a quote from this site http://www.theregist...light_sim_free/ So at the moment do the third party developers give any money they make off the back of FSX back to MS?Are the third party developers the ones that have made MS flight take the path it's taken?MS can't model the whole world to a high standard on there own so what was left for them to do?Model the Hawaiian Islands & make it into a airborne Grand Theft Auto.But just think under that there is a new 60+ FPS FSX just waiting to be unleashed to us but not with out the 3rd third party developers.Do the 3rd third party developers want MS Flight to fail why the need for the post from Orbx & PMDG?Do they want us to carry on buying addons for FSX where they keep all the money? and not have to hand over 30% to MS.Is it right that MS only get my £20 but the 3rd third party developers get my £150? when if it was not for FSX they would get nothing.Just my thought's