When starting a real 757 - does the flight crew have all the steps memorized in order, or do they actually read from the check list too. There are SO MANY step to memorize in order just to start the aircraft & get it to the runway threshold, I just wonder if the pilots committ it all to memory.Anyone help me on this?Thanks,Chris Catalano

Chris,From what I heard from some real ERJ pilot they first do everything from memory (they go by the visual "flow" of the panel so it is not really what you mean 'from memory') and then they quickly scan the checklist to make sure they did not miss any step. He said reading and executing every item from the list would take way too much time.I think the above makes sense. I am not sure if this is airline-specific or left to pilot's choice.Michael J.

Chris,I've also read a bit about "flows" in notes posted on the internet by real world pilots. Seems like Michael's right.There IS a lot to memorize, which is why they check the checklist...but consider that some things have to be done WITHOUT a checklist. One of the sets of notes I read for the Brasilia included a requirement for rote memorization of procedures for loss of cabin pressure, engine fire, and so on.Sure, the procedures for getting the plane ready for departure are daunting at first glance, but do it 50 times a month, and you'll get the hang of it.

ChrisWhen I went through 757 Ground School we were taught the panel flows as described Micheal and Kurt for the initial panel setup when entering the A/C. These covered basic items such as setting the electrical panel, Checking turning on the IRS's, setting the bleed panel,etc.. I will try to get a copy of the flow pattern for the 757 and post it here tomorrow, but this is only a general set-up. Once the flow chart is done and the FMC is loaded then the crews start from a paper checklist with a call and response for every item (pre-start, pushback, taxi, t/o checklists). These checklists cover most of the items previously set-up in the flow pattern to ensure that nothing was missed. RegardsPaul:-cool

Thank you all. This stuff fascinates me!Sinerely,Chris

Chris,Jet Tech is correct. A friend of mine is a 757 Captain for UPS just upgraded about 6 months ago. I had a length discussion about this with him some time ago. Cockpit "FLOWS" are essential for efficient and safe piloting techniques. The pilots know the flows for every switch position from the overhead panel to the floor for every phase of flight insideout and forwards and backwards. My friend was a communter pilot for Horizon Air for 6 years before UPS picked him up. You don't have a lot of time to go through checklists while shooting an approach in severe turbulence which is quite common in the northwest approaches.Here is the general steps per se from UPS on 757 operations.1) Initial cockpit inspection: Is the cockpit in good order, no smell of electrical fire, no damage, airworthiness certificates, take-off/dispatch paperwork and maintence records ready to sign, etc.2) Pre start flows, generally the co-pilot will do this prior to the captain boading the aircraft. He flow starts at the center pedistal and proceeds inch by inch covering every switch and device all the way up to the overheard panel. This is all done by memory. All appropriate navigation data is enterened into the FMC, NAV, COM, fuel loads, etc.3) Once the co-pilot is done with the pre-start flow, he will always complete the external pre-flight UNLESS the captain has directed otherwise. While the co-pilot is doing the external pre-flight, the captain goes through the pre-start flow himself to double check that everything is setup up properly.4) Next, when the co-pilot has completed the pre-flight briefing he returns to the cockpit. Where both the co-pilot and the captain go through the checklist TOGETHER in a "DO/VERIFY" format. This do/verify format is where the captain or copilot calls of the appropiate checklist item by item, the other pilot VERIFIES that the appropriate switch or instrument is set accordingly. Notice, that each item is independently checked 3! times. My friend states this is procedure is required for all UPS start up operations and is very common with major carriers and fedex.He is really trying to push me to for a commercial career. I have all my commercial and instructor ratings, but only 450 hours. He says his job isn't even a job, it' more of a hobby. He holds his own route out of portland works 14 days a month. On a 757 captains salary and a flight pass for a family on any major carrier must be nice.. heheHope this was helpfull,Your Truly, :-rotorJimmyBOB

Kurt,You are correct. FAA regulations require that all flight crews pass an ORAL and flight test for their appropriate crew position. For instance a SIC (second-in-command) position (a.k.a co-pilot) is usually required to IMMEDIATELY recite Emergency Action Checklists for events such as engine fires, cabin depressurization, engine failure, electrical failure, etc. These are required tasks that the crewmember is to be profiecient in for that person to legally perform their responibilites in the FAA's eyes. Thus, they must do them in order to WORK. The ERJ is and EXTREMELY automated aircraft. I have been told by captains that it is equal to if not more automated than a B777. There is a tremendous amount of systems, FMC, autopilot information in that aircrafts ground school. The ERJ is also VERY FAST, it can easily push the sound barrier up to MACH 0.95 when fully loaded. The systems are so complicated that even veteran turboprop captains often fail the ERJ conversion ground-schools.Each airline usually will have extra procedures and flows beyond what the FAA requires. Chris, If your really interested in this. I recommended doing the weekend program offered by United Airlines. It's a weekend of training and 2 hours in a full motion sim B737 in Denver. The cost is very inexpensive. About $250 for two full days of training at United Airlines Training Center in Denver, CO.Hope this helps,JimmyBOB

I know that this is a completely different world but I use the flow - checklist whenever I fly our club 172.During the pre-takeoff check I follow a flow that starts on the floor at the fuel selector. I then follow the path up from the selector to the lower row of the switches and circuit breakers and then on to the left side of the cockpit. My flow then takes me up across the instruments then back down the radio stack to the flap switch. I hit everything on the panel from controls to switches to radio frequencies. I then go through the entire pre-takeoff checklist to make sure that everything was covered. I feel that this is a pretty good way to make sure everything on and off the checklist is double-checked and ready to go and most of the flight instructors that I have been up with agree.One area where I occasionally will not back up with the checklist is during the before-landing/landing checklist. I do, however, always use the GUMPS pneumonic as it covers everything on the written checklist and then some. Usually I do not back it up with the written checklist when I am going into either an uncontrolled airport or an airport with a tower that has no radar and is really busy. I believe that it is more important to be looking for traffic then to have my head in the cockpit reading the list. I suppose that this will probably change should I move on to a more complex airplane but in the very simple 172 it does the trick.Happy Flying,Larry Brown

Larry,That is exactly what I was talking about. I have a fair amount of time in C172's too. GUMPS is a a good foundational acrynm. G= Gas U=UNDERCARRIAGE M=MIXTURE P=PROPS S=SEATBELTS!!! All of there are very important. However, if you ever try shooting a single pilot approach to minimums in a high performance twin such as a Baron, shooting the approach at 140 kts, things get more complicated QUICKLY.I would develop a quick flow for the before landing checklist. Before landing flow is even more important than before start flow. I recommend going through a similar flow to the before start. Assuming your approach with ILS and COMS set up and verifiied, it should take at most 1 minute to go throught the flow. Then verify with GUMPS as your mental checklist. Also, if you have a passenger MAKE USE OF THEM. PIC is to utilize ALL availabe resources. Make your passenger read the before landing checklist for you and/or look for traffic. Just some suggestionsJimmyBOb

When you say the visual "FLOW" of any panel - does it mean it's seqential visually - like from left to right, or top to bottom - or is the flow done by some other means - like a heirachy of systems -from most necessary at the present moment to the ones that can waith until a little later in the startup routine?Not sure I understand what a flow of a panel is for an AIRCRAFT :-(.I seem to get the general concept really well though. Clarification of this one last point may help me a great deal.Thanks for all the help.Sincerely,Chris

I will try to get a copy of the flow pattern for the 757 and post it here tomorrow, but this is only a general set-up. Thanks - I'll love to see it!I guess a flow chart for an A/C is a diagram that tells you which systems to set up first, second, third, etc.? Yes?ThanksChris

Chris,It is an actual visual flow (systematic, up/down, left/right) from the floor to the overhead panels including the sides. You do not visualize, except for the actual learning process of the flow. You physically look at every switch's position from the floorboard to the overheard panel systematically. Proffessional pilots acutally, "chair fly" when learning the flows in preparation to flying the real aircraft or multi-milliondollar full motion sim. The aircraft and sims are extremly expensive and every limited in time. Therefore, pilots sit in a chair in the hotel. Close their eyes and imagine themself step by step going through the flow. Thus, when they have a 45 minute flight in a 757 sim with a check airman in there initial trianing, the pilot knows what he is doing.I understand where you are commming from. Initialy I had no concept of what a flow was. Until you open your head a little and talk to people in order to truley understand the concept and it's purpose.JimmyBob

Thanks for your suggestions. I find passengers to be highly valuable. Almost every time I take somebody up I really benefit from the extra set of eyes. Passengers can also be a great help in looking things up when there is a change in plans.Happy Flying,Larry Brown

Chris,Basically it is an overview of the panels with arrows showing the direction of flow for checks. I wanted to post the text that goes with this section but it ended up being 30 pages and covers a lot of things that are not relevant to the PMDG 757. Basically if you look at the checklist you will see that it follows the same pattern. I have the pictures in my briefcase but haven't had a chance to scan them but keep posted. Hopefully late tonight. RegardsPaul:-cool

We actually have training rooms in our facilities which have pictures of the cockpits panels arranged in the cockpit configuration with a chair to sit in each pilot station. The Captain or F/O can then sit and practice the preflight procedures as well as learning loccation of critical items for Emergencies. This way it doesn't tie up the Full Motion or Fixed Base Sims for work that is better taught in the classroom. RegardsPaul:-cool