Quite ok, no hard feelings...:-beerchuganthonyAnthony MertonPrecision Manuals Developmenthttp://www.precisionmanuals.com

I am sorry that this incident has caused such a response, and, as such, have had the checklist removed from the AVSIM library.I have had quite a bit of experence with this sort of thing in the corportations I worked for. It is NOT plagerism if credit is given where credit is due. As such, I gave Boyd credit both in the AVSIM discreption and in the actual file itself. While the file relied on his original for most of the material, it contain material from PMDG for which I got copy write permission and also gave them credit in the file. This file also contained original material and modifications to some of Boyd's checklist.To use copy written material without permission is both illegal and immoral. To use intellectual material without acknowledgememt is morally wrong. I did neither. However, I am sorry for the misunderstanding and appoligize to Boyd for any hard feelings. Thus the material has been removed from AVSIM's file library and deleted from my computer.

Hi Cuyler,Plagiarism is generally defined as passing off someone else's work as your own to a captive audience. Such is normally found in academic circles, like universities.All orignal works, whether made available to captive or non-captive audiences are subject to copyright protection. The copyright holder retains rights of distribution and/or determination of the mode thereof. >To use copy written material without permission is both illegal and immoral.To use intellectual material without acknowledgememt is morally wrong.I did neither.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

I have PMDG's permisssion to use there material. I found no copyright associated the Boyd's material, else would have tried to contact him. However, I did give him credit, which amounts to the same thing as a footnote in academic circles. The only thing I could have done was footnote each instance of direct copy. Footnoting another author is legal and moral, but you don't want to get into that. Again I HAD PMDG'S COPYRIGHT PERMISSION WHICH I WILL BE GLAD TO SHARE WITH ANYONE. I ALSO GAVE AUTHORS CREDIT IN THE HEADING OF THIS FILE.You don't expect every author of a book who footnotes another author for use of material to get permission before inclusion in his work, do you. That does not happen in the legal or real world. Footnoting or acknowledging the original author is required. I both had copyright permission and did acknowledge Boyd as the author I used to modify the checklist. I did not pass this off as original material. I did not ask Boyd for his permission, which was a mistake, because there was no copyright notice or warning attached to the files I downloaded.So, now, tell me where I did both.

I would suggest you take a look at http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html for US law on the subject of copyrights. For one, no notice of copyright is required: it comes automatically upon creation of the material. You might also take a look at http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html for the top ten myths in copyright law.Lee Hetherington (KBED)

>If you're unfamiliar with>my checklist, it is perhaps the most comprehensive FS>checklist around. It represents months of research,>full-motion flight sim time, 737 pilot interviews, etc. I really have to say that I am very much for respecting copyright and the work of others but I just downloaded your checklist only to see what this is all about. I still don

What did you download for comparison? The offending files have been removed from the file library since early yesterday. If you compared the proper files, then there is no way you could come to the same conclusion. My DF737 Checklist is unlike anything produced elsewhere; especially anything that came with the DF737. I'm talking about duplicate format, phraseology, abbreviations, punctuation, etc...and all in the same places. That's what makes it so easy to identify someone who has simply cut and pasted my work and then tweaked it about 5-10%. Seriously, this topic seems like such a no brainer to me. I simply don't understand. Again, I am so thankful for the majority of you who agreed with my point of view. I thought I was losing it. I thought my work was free territory to anyone who wanted to make use of it. Very disheartening indeed.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

Cuyler, You were the one mentioned as giving credit. I'm sure he would have not have not had a problem if you had asked OR told him you were sorry insted of trying to justify your actions, what matters is that the original author felt taken advantaged of here. Even now if you look at it from his stand point I'm sure you will see it's just about respect, I know you feel like everyone is ganging up on you and I do understand that you also feel upset by this whole matter. You might be suprised at people's atittude if you humble your responce to this matter. [h5]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smith [h4]P M D G 7 3 7 NG[/h4]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/mineimage.jpg [h3] Realism on the horizon [h5]AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h5]

>What did you download for comparison? The offending files>have been removed from the file library since early yesterday.I downloaded your file and compared it to the DF737-manual.> If you compared the proper files, then there is no way you>could come to the same conclusion. My DF737 Checklist is>unlike anything produced elsewhere; especially anything that>came with the DF737. Well, yes, the *format* is different, of course, but the content is very much the DF 737-manual.> I'm talking about duplicate format,>phraseology, abbreviations, punctuation, etc...and all in the>same places. That's what makes it so easy to identify someone>who has simply cut and pasted my work and then tweaked it>about 5-10%. I never saw "the other guys" checklist but obviously your checklist is a "short version" of the DF737-manual, something I also did when I bought the DF737. So he may have copied it from you but obviously you copied it from the DF 737-manual. I don

I can't believe this. The checklist available from DreamFleet IS my checklist. I worked it up for Lou Betti of DreamFleet and gave it to him. That's why there are similarities. Seriously, this is offensive.I spent months building that checklist. I spent 90 minutes in a full motion 737 simulator. I interviewed 737 pilots. I studied real world 737 Ops Manuals and QRHs. I beta tested that thing to no end. It's in it's TENTH version. How on Earth can you even dream of alleging that I simply copied what's in the DF737 manual. Hold on a sec, I have to pick myself up off the floor. Where in any chapter of the DF737 Operations Manual (of which I am more than keenly aware I assure you) is there anything remotely similar to my checklist? My checklist is not a checklist per se, it's a step-by-step of what to do including speeds, ground instructions, FMC procedures, and so on. It's geared towards sim pilots, not real world pilots. It contains the things that a real pilot wouldn't need to have in front of him or her, but we might. That's what makes it unlike anything else out there...including anything that shipped with the DF737 in any of its manuals.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

I was just about to post that DF was using your checklists, not the other way around - I remember when you posted about this on the DF forum...Look at this page on the DF site if you need more proof folks:http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/Downloads/73...oads_other.html"Created by Boyd Barker, a manager with a major US airline that operates many 737s, this checklist is a "must have" for 737 enthusiasts."Ryan

>I can't believe this. The checklist available from>DreamFleet IS my checklist. I worked it up for Lou Betti of>DreamFleet and gave it to him. That's why there are>similarities. Seriously, this is offensive.I DON

??? Not exaggerating???From the DF-forum :-)"Help for Boyd Barker" Hello all. This is an exasperated appeal to anyone who is familiar with my DF737 Checklist. As you know, I've spent countless hours to make this tool available to all. It's currently in its 10th revision! Unfortunately, a couple of people have taken it upon themselves to "cut and paste" my checklist and adapt it to the PMDG 737NG with only very minor modifications. Anyone who has spent time writing, building, or developing something will understand the sting when someone steals your work. I am now in a bit of a debate with these folks and I sure could use some back-up. They are claiming that my checklist is neither original nor unique. Well, that's the PMDG Forum in AVSIM for ya. These are DreamFleet folks here and those of you who fly the DF737 (the greatest FS model of all time btw) and have used (hopefully continue to use) my checklist will understand how absurd this really is. You see, it's more than a checklist, it's a 'step-by-step' including speeds, ground instructions, FMC commands, and much more that real pilots wouldn't need, but we might. It's geared towards the simmer, particularly those who have never been behind a yoke like me, but want to fly the DF737 as smooth and realistic as possible. This work of mine has been stolen and abused. If you have a moment, how about back me up (if you agree of course). The debate is here: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...14666&mode=full. Lou, forgive me if this is off topic, inappropriate, or otherwise, but I'm a bit steamed, could use some support, and know where the minds are that I can really count on. Cheers to you all!Boyd Barker

If fact won't convince you, then perhaps the opinions of those who know what I'm talking about, like many of those who have already spoken up in this thread, can. Either I convince myself that my contributions to this community will be respected, or I will have to resort to keeping them to myself...and that's not how this hobby developed into something so fun and realistic.Boyd Barker, Senior Command CaptainDirector of Special ProjectsKBOS Hub ManagerWestWind Airlineswww.flywestwind.com

Vortex, Sir you are not in compliance with the forum rules which require you to sign your posts with your real name. I suggest you have a look at the rules thread here: http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...g_id=2402&page= Thank you[h5]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smith [h4]P M D G 7 3 7 NG[/h4]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/mineimage.jpg [h3] Realism on the horizon [h5]AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h5]