Sign in to follow this  
Guest Pittsburgh

Hold at present position

Recommended Posts

Hi All, Noticed to day when ATC asked me to perform at holding pattern at present position that this was not possible like it is with the 767PIC. Is that because it is not possible in the real aircraft or is it an unimplemented issue? With thanks in advance :-waveBoaz

Share this post


Link to post
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

It is possible. Unfortunetly I do not remember exactly where/how, so I am just giving this topic a little bump :)

Share this post


Link to post

>> Hummm,>> Simple my friends, bring up the HOLD page, you will see PPOS>PROMT, click it ;)It is always something easy, isn't it ;-)

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Randy, I don't unfortunately see it that simple. When I press hold, I get prompted by "HOLD AT" and the 5 boxes to enter which waypoint to hold at. However, unlike PIC, there is no way to select PPOS. Or am I missing something fundamental? With thanks in advance... :-waveBoaz

Share this post


Link to post

Boaz,As far as I know you can't hold at PPOS with PMDG 737. What you may do is create a fix and hold, not a good option though.Bruno Francescoli.

Share this post


Link to post

I have used this function MANY TIMES on this aircraft, I just reinstalled windows so need to stick FS2002 back in. Unless PMDG took it out, I KNOW it was there. Do you have an active route? [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/winglets_lg.jpg [h3] AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h3]

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Randy, I must then assume that PMDG has taken the PPOS away from the FMC. When flying along an active route and wanting to hold at present position, I press the HOLD button. This makes the FMC prompt me to enter which waypoint to hold at in LSK6L. I will never, to the best of my knowledge, get to the HOLD PAGE before I have chosen a waypoint to hold at. I know that 767PIC presents an option to choose PPOS in LSK6R. I am at work now and cannot produce a screen shot now (how is that done, by the way: I have tried to press Alt+PrtScr, Ctrl+PrtScr, PrtScr but to no avail). I saw that someone suggested to make a new waypoint via the FIX page, but I cannot remember seing any options to do that in the FIX page.With thanks in advance :-waveBoaz Lev

Share this post


Link to post

"I must then assume that PMDG has taken the PPOS away from the FMC."Nope, just checked in my copy (SU1.1), and it's still there, Boaz. I'm running FS2002 by the way.LSK 6R shows "PPOS}". When I push it, the MOD ROUTE HOLD page appears and the EXEC light illuminates.It's not dependent on aircraft type is it? (-600/-700/-700 winglets, etc)Cheers.Ian.

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Ian, I am also using FS2K2 and SU1.1 (I assume that as I have the vertical path deviation indicator which wasn't present in SU1). However, I am flying the -600. Have not tried with the -700 although I doubt that that could have any influence (could be wrong here).Thanks,Boaz

Share this post


Link to post

It's working for me in both 600 and 700, I'm in FS2004 though.The hold pattern is drawn wrong (but that's a known issue I think) but the A/C flies the racetrack correctly-and I timed it, too...Best,Martijn

Share this post


Link to post

Someone please slap me on the forehead and call me stupid! One cardinal point for this to work is to have LNAV engaged x( God, do I feel ashamed now *:-* Thanks for your inputs though :-)With kind regards, Boaz

Share this post


Link to post

As a pilot in the stages of doing my instrument rating practical and nearly done with the required theory, I have never heard of the requirement to "hold present position". Usually a pilot needs a "fix" to hold at, which could be a VOR, intersection, etc. While an aircraft with an FMC like this one, could possibly "hold at current position", a more simple aircraft like I fly would need a fix to navigate to/from in the hold. And I don't think that the instrument theory and regs are any different for heavies vs. light a/c. I don't know how I could ever "hold at current position" with any accuracy in the C172, and holding patterns and their entry are precision manouvers. ATC is basically putting you somewhere where they can forget about you for a while, but they would need to know precisely where you are, requiring precision navigating and flying.Maybe Rob could tell us more on this, or any other IR pilots. Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Bruce,In the UK I have been told to remain clear of controlled airspace whilst on an IFR flight plan. An example would be when approaching a class A airway to join from uncontrolled class G airspace. I'd need to get an airways clearance and if I didn't get it before reaching the airway then I'd have to fly a holding pattern using whatever navaids are available. Of course, I would have prepared this in preflight just in case! Since such holds are not published, the accuracy of flying the hold isn't too important providing I remain clear of controlled airspace and above MSA.This very thing happened to me on my JAA IR test.I also have an FAA IR and I trained in Florida for this. The above situation never occured to me there since the different airspace structure meant I was always in class E airspace above 1200ft agl and I always got "cleared as filed" from ATC before departure. Nice and easy! :)

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Neil,Thanks for the info. I have also been asked to remain clear of Class D airspace, but not to actually "hold"- since the controller is responsible for the Class Delta he doesn't care what I do as long as I remain out of his airspace (a SVFR clearance typically involves this instruction if someone else is already in the Delta airspace).I've almost completed my written study, and found references to holding only at fixes, for that very reason that you say- you can't be 100% sure that you're holding exactly where the controller thinks you are, and he/she's put you there to forget about you for a while.Thanks,Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

G'day BruceWhen you get out into the real world don't expect to be asked to hold only at fix's or aids.I have been held on several occassions when incidents have been happening going into YSSY.Normally comes up like"All aircraft inbound to Sydney please hold present position left hand 1 min patterns,report recieved".Belive me the workload goes through the roof in 5 secs flat.Enjoy the training

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Darren,Thanks for the real world tip! I still have lots of practical work to do, and am somewhat apprehensive about flying IR once I have the rating- just for these reasons of the unknowns! Thanks again- what do you fly into YSSY? I used to live just out of Melbourne, but wasn't flying then.Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

Bruce,I can't comment on how they do it in Europe - but in the U.S., you would NEVER be told "to hold at present position" when flying IFR. Unless the holding pattern is published, I am required to supply the following information when issuing a hold: 1) The fix to hold at 2) the direction from the fix 3) the radial, airway, bearing, etc. to hold on 4) the altitude to maintain and 5) an EFC "Expect Further Clearance" time. Example: "Cleared direct Colorado Springs, hold northeast on the COS 038 radial, maintain eight thousand, expect further clearance at 1750." ATC may occasionally "spin" aircraft for spacing; but this is accomplished with vectors... not a holding clearance.Regards,Marc

Share this post


Link to post

>G'day Bruce>Normally comes up like"All aircraft inbound to Sydney please>hold present position left hand 1 min patterns,report>recieved".Yeah, that must be what happens when you "privatize" ATC... I'll bet the Airservices CEO was flying in and wanted to get to the head of the line :-).Marc

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Marc,Thanks- your comments (from a real controller) are very re-assuring, there's nothing like thinking the theory and the yelling CFII aren't telling me all there is to know about IR flight!As I mentioned below, I have been told by a Class Delta controller to do a 360 for spacing, which is something very different from a "hold" as defined in instrument flight. I've also been told to stay clear of the Class Delta when the F-16's are "playing" around the airport, or in SVFR, but that's not a hold either- the controller doesn't really care what I do as long as I stay out of his/her airspace.I don't know who else here are IR'd pilots (or better). I have been told by some very experienced and ATP- licensed guys that the IR is the hardest of all to get (as I'm finding out), and it's just for this same reason, you have to be able to precisely navigate to/from a fix.Thanks- it's good to hear from you again, a long time since we both did Fly!Scripts with Anthony (here of PMDG).!! Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

Hey Bruce,How ya doing my friend? Glad to see you're working on your IR - do you find that practicing with FS helps in your training?>As I mentioned below, I have been told by a Class Delta>controller to do a 360 for spacing, which is something very>different from a "hold" as defined in instrument flight. I've>also been told to stay clear of the Class Delta when the>F-16's are "playing" around the airport, or in SVFR, but>that's not a hold either- the controller doesn't really care>what I do as long as I stay out of his/her airspace.Exactly! If you're VFR, we assume that you can take care of yourself until we have time to handle you. My philosophy is that a VFR pilot got to where he's at without my help - so he can stay where he's at until I have a chance to help.>I don't know who else here are IR'd pilots (or better). I>have been told by some very experienced and ATP- licensed guys>that the IR is the hardest of all to get (as I'm finding out),>and it's just for this same reason, you have to be able to>precisely navigate to/from a fix.Yep, many pilots go ahead and get their commercial simultaneously with their instrument because the precision flying required for both certificates are very similar. The good news is that once you get your rating, you probably won't receive many holding clearances and you can probably forget everything you ever learned about flying a DME arc! The IR is particularly hard because a lot of the toughest procedures are hardly ever used day-to-day. By the way, you might want to question that eight thousand altitude assignment in my holding clearance... working in the "flat" south, I forgot how high the ground is in your neck of the woods :-).>Thanks- it's good to hear from you again, a long time since we>both did Fly!Scripts with Anthony (here of PMDG).!! It has been a while! Glad Anthony has moved on to greener pastures... and more glad he's finally getting all this VNAV stuff straightened out - I was giving him a hard time about that 2 years ago... some things never change ;-). He's helped give us a mighty fine airplane though! Take care and keep plugging away at that rating. Here's a good real-life ATC story to leave you with... N12345, Squawk Altitude. Uh, Roger approach.A minute passes... N12345, I'm still not receiving your mode-C, squawk altitude! Approach, I have a problem - I'm at eight thousand, and I'm trying to put 8-0-0-0 into the transponder; but the digits only go up to seven!True story... "the callsigns have been changed to protect the idiot".See Ya,Marc

Share this post


Link to post

"cardinal point for this to work is to have LNAV engaged God, do I feel ashamed now"Don't be ashamed, Boaz.... I tried to access the HOLD page on a real 737 today... and I didn't even get a HOLD page. The HOLD button did nothing... the button push was ignored (The aircraft was on the ground and there was no route programmed).Are all real life 737's like this? (U10.5 software by the way).Cheers.Ian.

Share this post


Link to post

Neil,You don't play the French Horn by any chance do you?Pete

Share this post


Link to post

G'day BruceIts a small world i actually come from Melbourne but now live in Sydney flying for QF on the Dash 8.(Eastern)Mate the only way to learn is to go and have a bash and its greatfun out there punching holes in real clouds.As they say life is not a spectator sport!!All the best

Share this post


Link to post

Hi Marc,That's quite a story about the "squawk altitude" :) . I assume a student pilot, although one never knows !Yes, I do find that Fs helps me with IR procedures. I would never recommend it for VFR training, as it is so "out of the ####-pit" visual training, and FS can't do that well (some of this is portraying a 3D scene in 2D, and with limited peripheral "vision" in FS). I also have "IP Trainer", something that resembles FS4 more than anything (around 1993/4). It has a virtual CFII that is very unforgiving!! It's very humbling, believe me!Good to hear from you, and yes, you're right about the hold clearance altitude- 0' AGL is over 5,000' MSL in this area :) .Bruce.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this