some more remarks regarding the real NG after a little chat with a -800 driver. I asked him about climb and holdings, maybe you'll find that interesting :1. I asked whether the real plane would exceed speed when e.g. climbing out from 250kt/5000 ft using LVL CHG or VNAV. The answer was : No, it wouldn't.The PMDG NG exceeds speed by 7-8 kt and then has to go to a bit uncomfortable climb rate to reduce the speed to 250 again. Even Radar Contact 3 keeps ranting at me, so I have to go down to 240 to avoid that.The real -800 usually climbs out with around 3000 fpm, for the -700 approx. 3000-3500 fpm depending on weight was estimated, but not more. The plane just climbs, but it does not accelerate !!Is it possible to adjust this a bit ?2. At best speed the real plane would stay on the magenta holding track and turn with 25 deg bank. Slightly exceeding best speed it would still stay on track, but bank to 30 deg. More speed would then lead to the real plane also exceed the magenta track.Holding pattern radius would be approx. 2.5-3 NM between 5000 and 10000 ft. Up to approx 6 NM at FL250.In the PMDG I noticed the magenta pattern looks almost OK at lower altitudes, but the plane exceeds the radius almost by a factor of 2 even at best speed. At the first view it seems the turn radius is a bit big ??3. The practical useful descend angle calculator was also confirmed. As a little addition, you can enter restrictions manually at LSK 3R /DES Page, which would then stay there until cleared. The angle calculator at LSK4R (FPA, VB, VS) is also available before TOD in the real plane.Mike

Hello PMDG team,anybody out there ? I was hoping not to write this just for my personal entertainment, thought you guys might find this interesting.While Item 3 might be considered bean counting, I think especially the first problem is a major issue.Mike

Mike,We're looking into and talking about that.anthonyAnthony MertonPrecision Manuals Developmenthttp://www.precisionmanuals.com

Anthony,Ok, very good. I cross my fingers some adjustments in this regard might make it into SU2 :)thanksMike

Sure for #2 but your friend is way off about climb rates Mike. In fact this team has there own *real 700* drivers who state this model is right on. All one needs to do is read the real Boeing manuals (and preformance CBTS etc) to see that the 700 can achieve 5400 FPM at a given weight. How someone can claim that the 700 would never go above 3000-3500....... and be so wrong makes me question what they are flying. So, there is no need to adjust anything for climb rates when they are spot on the real deal....................................... [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/196432/winglets_lg.jpg

Randy,as I already told you: you're misunderstanding the statement. Michael just said, that in *this* concrete situation (ALT HLD @5000ft, 250kt) the plane does *not* accelerate and climb with ~3500ft initial, when switching from ALT HLD to LVL CHG.He did not say, that a 737 always climb with 3500ft max.Got it ? ;)

Randy,a nice example someone reads an FCOM or FCOM data and then thinks a plane is flown with the max values listed there. If a pilot has the choice of max climb rate with the value your describe (5400 fpm) or a passenger friendly climb rate of 3000-3500 fpm (by choosing a lower climb power setting), then what do you think he would choose ?"Passenger comfort" is always a bit neglected in FS Addons, but if you would transfer the flat numbers on the PFD to "real life", then you might notice something is not completely right. Ever tried to climb out with 6000-6500 fpm in a full motion sim ?But anyway, you missed the problem. You can clearly see the PMDG 737 accelerates first (250 kt -> 257/258 kt regardless of climb power setting) and then climbs. Just to find the speed is too high and then overcompensates with a much too high climb rate for the given settings. Later it settles then. To say again, the real plane just climbs and doesn't accelerate at all.Just to mention another detail not mentioned in FCOMs : In VNAV mode, the A/T will increase power more swiftly than in LVL CHG. By far too much to ask for in FS, just thought it might interest you.I mean, the 250 kt restriction is an important thing and ATC conformity should be something to aim for. In fact, as much as I welcome systems or FMC improvements, we shall have FLIGHTsimulation first ;).The PMDG 737NG sets of course new marks regarding plane and Autopilot behaviour. The above is clearly a misbehaviour, so why not adjust this ? But - as I don't know about programming possibilities and/or FS restrictions, I was only asking if it COULD be adjusted ...Mike

I am very aware of what he wrote and being that english is my native tongue, I know clearly what is stated Hans. But since you deserve a responce ;)HANS SAYS " Michael just said, that in *this* concrete situation (ALT HLD @5000ft, 250kt) the plane does *not* accelerate and climb with ~3500ft initial, when switching from ALT HLD to LVL CHG."MICHAEL SAYS1. I asked whether the real plane would exceed speed when e.g. climbing out from 250kt/5000 ft using LVL CHG or VNAV. The answer was : No, it wouldn't. The truth is Hans you friend's friends comments are wrong even here. I see you left out VNAV which goes to prove that the only reason this was brought up was to show that the aircraft climbs at an excessive rate ALL THE TIME in these maodes, not just at this concrete *discription*. If you desire more conversation on this subject I would be more than happy to discuss in private, you know my mail ;)[h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/196432/winglets_lg.jpg

FCOM? You into Airbus ;)? Who said anything about passenger *comfort*? That strikes me that you use that term Mike but for other reasons than our discussion. You keep speaking Mike like your friend's word is *the last word* and that might be ok for you, it does not work for me at all. You need to provide numbers and FACTS from real preformance manuals etc OR any Boeing 700 NG manual dealing with this area, frankly what you and I *think* matter not or what Joe pilot says should happen. I will stand by my word, there is nothing wrong whatsoever with this behavior as proven byA: All relevent Boeing manualsB: 737 Pilots involved in this project directly....... Come back with clear facts and we can have a more fruitful discussion. I love having them ;)[h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/196432/winglets_lg.jpg

so much bright text - instinctive I jumped backed from this screen, so I can't read everything ;)ok, this discussion doesn't need to be continued (Mike can speek for himself) - and we're all together looking for the right questions and answers :)edit: I left out VNAV by mistake - it doesn't change anything. Switching from ALT HLD to VNAV gives the same results

Randy,>> You into Airbus ?Not really, at least not in FS ;). So Ok, operations manual, not FCOM ;)>> That strikes me that you use that term Mike but for other reasons than our discussionThe aspect of passenger comfort has more to do with real flying than you think. Besides SOPs, Manuals or of course. But look in Bulfers book, even he has to say something about passenger comfort (e.g. regarding the VNAV versus partial throttle/constant angle descent).>> A: All relevent Boeing manuals I think the problem we are having is : Operations manuals are nice, performance data in Manuals is nice, but : How does the plane feel behave, how's the Autopilot/plane "interaction" in practice (sometimes even controversial among real pilots). What has your manual to say regarding this ? Also I find it always a bit funny if real pilots mention some practical numbers, someone comes up with a manual and says : Hey, look, I found a different value.I have a -700/-800 Manual like you and can also read tables, but I'm afraid that will not bring us any further.>> B: 737 Pilots involved in this project directly.......So your 737 pilots involved in the product say, they switch on VNAV or LVL CHG below 10000 ft and their plane would exceed speed by 8 kt, then overcompensate with 6000-6500 fpm to finally settle at 5400 fpm ? *** Can you please confirm this with a YES or NO ? *** I mean, Ok, if they fly like this and THEIR 737 behaves like this, then what shall I say ? However, the -800 driver I chatted with told me different. Plane does not accelerate, they climb out with 3000 fpm with appropriate climb power and if they had the choice between VNAV and LVL CHG, he chooses VNAV if possible due to more swift power increase. Yes, the -700 is no -800 (what a surprise), so with 3000-3500 ft climb he estimated for the -700 (slightly more climbrate with similar reduced power setting ??? Have to ask regarding this).As much as I would love to discuss this, I really don't know what to add. So it's a bit a matter of take it or ignore it.Mike

One more remark after looking at my initial message again. Probably due to my german english there might indeed be a misunderstanding. I did not want to say the max. climb rate in the -700 shall be 3000-3500 fpm, but all means no. So this should NOT put the excellent flight dynamics into question.What the 737 pilot was telling is they are climbing out with 3000 fpm (from that 250 kt/5000 ft scenario !!) with the appropriate climb power. Now especially because the PMDG exceeds the speed which must then compensated by climb rate the PMDG NG exceeds this (even the 5400 you mentioned, I have initially seen 6000-6500 fpm !). At least I have found no way out of this.So not the theoretical max climb rate is in question. Again, the problem is this : No matter if choosing LVL CHG or VNAV in climb scenarios, the plane shall climb, but not exceed MCP or FMC speed. I have chosen the 250 kt below 10000 ft scenario, because at that speed the overspeeding is most obvious.Hope this makes it clear and sorry, if I might have caused confusion. Mike

I dont really see what all the argument is about. The original poster brought out some concerns he had.....Be it relevant or not.A PMDG team member replied with the following post:>>>Mike,We're looking into and talking about that.anthonyAnthony MertonPrecision Manuals Developmenthttp://www.precisionmanuals.com <<<

Randy,One more : Just to make sure, I didn't post something wrong (the NG Pilot I talked on the phone is not at home for a few days), I asked some NG pilots additionally at pprune.org by Email. One answer I already got is from a -800 pilot again, but here goes :Question :1.) Just one example scenario : Using VNAV or LVL/CHG from a 250 kt / 5000 ft situation, would the NG overspeed and if so, how far ?2.) Using an appropriate climb power for the above situation, at what rate does the NG climb then ?3.) Can you confirm VNAV increases power more swiftly.Answer :It wouldn`t overspeed, just climb. In VNAV mode, power will increase more swiftly than in LVL CHG. It will climb with approx 3000 ft/min (-800)Exactly the same. I'll not post his name and email here, if you need the original post, let me know.------------A little practical test, although I'm not that talented in table reading. The only values I found regarding climb rates are values in case of unreliable airspeed readout for a 280 kt climb above 10000. Not sure whether they are practically appropriate for this discussion, but they are interesting anyway.737-700/CFM56-7B24, 150000 lbs, Press.Alt. 10000 ft, 280 kt climb : 3200 fpm, flaps up, set max. climb thrust737-800/CFM56-7B26, 150000 lbs, Press.Alt. 10000 ft, 280 kt climb : 3000 fpm, flaps up, set max. climb thrustIf you look to relative values -700/-800 : if a pilot "sees" 3000 fpm in his -800 at 250/5000 at the climb power he is using, then the estimation 3000-3500 fpm for the -700 seems reasonable. BTW, the list says 3200 fpm for 150000 lbs, 5600 fpm for 90000 lbs.And yes, I know, the values are for 7B24 engines.But what does the PMDG do ? 150000 lbs, 10000 ft, LVL CHG to higher alt., CLB :Exceeds speed to 286 kt (incorrect), initial climb 4300 fpm (incorrect, overcompensates), settles to 3200 fpm (looking very good). Conclusion : Flight dynamics excellent (everyone should agree with this anyway :), but how the Autopilot deals with the climb power MIGHT need adjustment. That's what my post was all about.Mike

"Just to mention another detail not mentioned in FCOMs : In VNAV mode, the A/T will increase power more swiftly than in LVL CHG."Interesting...According to the Boeing Maintenance Manual, for..."...takeoff or go-around, the A/T moves the thrust levers at a rate of 13.5 degrees/sec to a predicted position. For final adjusments, the A/T moves the T/Ls at a maximum rate of 5 deg/sec. In modes other than TO/GA, the A/T computer limits the thrust lever rates to 3deg/sec."Am I wrong in assuming that somebody must be wrong here? :-)Cheers.Ian.