In other words i wont be able to write turn directions in my procedures with the upcoming SU2?Roar Andre Nicolaisen

Hi,From what I read here and what I am discussing with Terry it looks like Terry and PMDG are now creating a terminal procedure database which will be made available to users by PMDG.Is this assumption correct?If yes then:Why publishing the syntax if only Terry and PMDG will have the tools to produce termianl procedures?Same question about the publication of the manual is it useful to release it? if we will not have acess to the tools to produce accurate terminal procedures.Will the database made available be a worldwide database of all runways having terminal procedures attached to them. If my count is correct from other FMC databases it should be something around 1,300 airports? Will the database be kept current on the usual 28 days interval? not only against the DAFIF sources but against all NOTAMs published by Jeppesen.The name DAFIF as the source for the building of terminal procedures has been mentioned on numerous occasions. It is well known that DAFIF shows chronic defficiencies especially around non-US airports. Is the DAFIF database been manually corrected before being used?Michael

From the Syntax and example above, I was under the impression it was still possible to write them manually. I am not really that worried about having an automatic tool to write them. If it is possible to produce the procedure automatically via the DAFIF data then I guess Terry would have already done it? So my idea was to work on the airports that were incomplete or missing via Terry's automatic method.I have already added approach procedures to several of the UK sid/stars that I had already written, but unable to test them out yet until the SU2 release.In the initial release the lack of airports with sid/stars included was put down to the incomplete DAFIF data, is this data now much better?As I have already done the bulk of the work on the main UK airports sid/stars, it shouldn't take too long to update them to SU2.I'm going to hold off doing more work on them for now, until the extent and quality of the forthcoming main sid/stars pack becomes more apparent.Simon

From the Syntax and example above, I was under the impression it was still possible to write them manually. I am not really that worried about having an automatic tool to write them. If it is possible to produce the procedure automatically via the DAFIF data then I guess Terry would have already done it? So my idea was to work on the airports that were incomplete or missing via Terry's automatic method.I have already added approach procedures to several of the UK sid/stars that I had already written, but unable to test them out yet until the SU2 release.In the initial release the lack of airports with sid/stars included was put down to the incomplete DAFIF data, is this data now much better?As I have already done the bulk of the work on the main UK airports sid/stars, it shouldn't take too long to update them to SU2.I'm going to hold off doing more work on them for now, until the extent and quality of the forthcoming main sid/stars pack becomes more apparent.Simon

Guys,The DAFIF data is not completely covering the world. Many airports in Europe for example are missing. But this is a start set of procedures. From there on we will have to create more procedures to make the coverage even greater. What would be good though is some common server to host all these files. Maybe Navdata can provide that? You will still be able to produce your own procedures. Though not automated. Terry has written an excellent tutorial on this which will be released with SU2 if I'm not maistaken. Terry? Would be cool if someone could make an add-on that would let you program procedures with a UI instead of programatically.Regards,Mats

Please correct me if I am wrong, but DAFIF lists only wpt sequences and lat longs etc. Things like direction of turn for reversal procedures etc are not listed and therefore, although correct wpt sequencing may occur, correct tracking may not.Certainly, the DAFIF database of Australasian procedures leaves a lot to be desired and is far from complete.There is still a job out there for SID/STAR writers who seek as accurate as possible procedures. Not withstanding, Terry has done an outstanding job to plug a very large gap - my hat's off to you Terry (and Anthony for the updated lexicon after heavy campaigning from a number of the SID/STAR writers)Cheers,Danny Vickers :-waveAdelaide, Australia

Hi guys,Well we all seem to agree on one thing DAFIF datas are far from accurate especially outside of the US. Danny, there is more than waypoint sequences and coordinates in DAFIF so in fact it is a good source to build terminal procedures at least for US airports.Now, if we want to get serious about it and build a termianl procedure database of the standards of PS1.3 and alike we need to organize ourselves.1. what do we have on hand:an unknown and untested number of terminal procedures written by Terry based on his automatic converter sourcing from DAFIF. Correct me if I am wrong please.An improved syntax with a forthcoming manual. Can Terry and PMDG confirm that the entire - repeat entire - syntax will be disclosed to us. No hidden commands or unreported command. 2. what we don't have and will not have in the foreseeable future:Terry's converter. For reasons which I respect Terry will not relase his converter.3. what we need:a central place to upload and download terminal procedures. (I will raise this issue with Richard of Navdata again)access to the latest charts and notams which most of us have.DAFIF database as a support but we need to adjust DAFIF's datas to 424 compliant Airacs.4. what we could dream of:have an UI to program the terminal procedures.Nice but not essential don't you agree?have a converter to source automatically the needed datas from DAFIF or alike AND to match each data with the latest airinc of navdata. That would tremendously help and also if the converter is working well it would eliminate a great deal of errors inherent to manual programming.Any one willing to help especially programmers (VB, Delphi or better) please send me an email at [email protected] free to comment and add ideas!Michael

>Please correct me if I am wrong, but DAFIF lists only wpt>sequences and lat longs etc. Things like direction of turn>for reversal procedures etc are not listed DAFIF certainly has waypoints (20 different types) and associated latlongs but it also lists turn directions, alt restrictions, speed restrictions, holds and navaids.>There is still a job out there for SID/STAR writers who seek>as accurate as possible procedures. Certainly is. The procedures for the SU2 release currently has 1687 airports listed. That is not all the airports out there that can land a 737. Even for those airports listed there are some where DAFIF doesn't provide all procedures for them.LaterTerry

>looks like Terry and PMDG are now creating a terminal>procedure database which will be made available to users by>PMDG.I am creating the database and as far as I know PMDG will be kind enough to host them.>Why publishing the syntax if only Terry and PMDG will have the>tools to produce termianl procedures?The tools are in this thread above. That set of syntax rules is what I had to use to develop my converter. There are no other programming tools or a program I know of to make procedures from a chart. Think of it as a mini programming language. It's like BASIC or C. You are given the syntax of the language and you are set loose to program using that syntax.>Will the database made available be a worldwide database of>all runways having terminal procedures attached to them. If my>count is correct from other FMC databases it should be>something around 1,300 airports? It contains 1687 worldwide airports and the procedures for those airports as given by the DAFIF. I also don't list runways shorter than 4500 feet as I am told that is about the shortest runway a 737 can use. Keep in mind the DAFIF was developed for the U.S. military and contains only those airports and procedures they can use. >Will the database be kept current on the usual 28 days>interval? not only against the DAFIF sources but against all>NOTAMs published by Jeppesen.I will try my best to update on the DAFIF cycle. It will not be checked against Jeppesen by me. Besides the pilot is responsibe for checking NOTAMs before every flight. 8^)>Is the DAFIF database been manually corrected before being used?No. I do not have a subscription to any chart service to get current charts. Terry

>An improved syntax with a forthcoming manual. Greatly improved syntax as you see above. Don't know about a manual but a tutorial yes.>Can Terry and PMDG confirm that the entire - repeat entire ->syntax will be disclosed to us. No hidden commands or>unreported command. I know of no hidden commands. Why would PMDG even want to do that? Actually though the syntax above lists more than may be in SU2. The turns used in conjunction with the Direct command have not been implemented as of today as far as I've heard. Nor have the altitude restrictions other than "AT". My tutorial addresses all commands that are in the SU2 release of the syntax. I track this on a daily basis and update the tutorial when needed. I want to try to have it as complete and current as I can make it.Terry

Has anyone here seen the frontend UI that SSW developed for their project? I have used it and while it is limited as far as assigning radials to fly on SID/STAR's, it is quite usefull in making procedures. Something along those lines would help tremendously.

Hi Terry,Thanks for the explanation.Michael

Hi,Yes, I had a look. I guess that something around this idea could be done. You may also remember Terry's front end for the modification of PIC 767 sids and stars. Maybe a combination of both ideas could be used. I am talking to couple of friends of mine who have programming experience. Will let you know. We are also loking into the possibility to create an appplication which will read, extract and process datas from a "modified DAFIF database" and create terminal procedures. Kind of what Terry has been creating for his personal use. The way we see it is that the application will extract all necessary datas to build a terminal procedure from the database, format them with the syntax and use a template to build a PMDG readable procedure. This will be repeated as many time as needed to complete all procedures of an airport and then combined as one txr file par airport.One word about the "modified DAFIF database". This subject has been the occasion of much debate. DAFIF is not perfect and was originally designed to accomodate the needs of the US military. Later it was put in the public domain and can be used to build whatever databases. Inconsistancies in the database are more visible outside of the US and range from missing airports to spelling errors, coordinate errors, fantasy names of waypoints etc... Richard Stefan has done a tremendous job in cleaning up most of the inaccuracies. This is what you are using everyday with the Airinc cycles Richard publishes. Michael

Actually, DAFIF does have turn direction in it. Whether or not Terry's converter and or the FMC can handle it is a different matter. For example, I think the FMC syntax can in many places accept a turn direction, I don't believe in SU2 the FMC will pay attention to those specifications. In other cases, it doesn't accept a turn direction in all cases that DAFIF can supply them.DAFIF actually has a very rich set of segment types and not just a sequence of waypoints.I have built my own converter, and I think for the most part my output agrees with Terry's. I think by having two independent converters, both have improved.Lee Hetherington (KBED)