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Disgusted with the "other" site

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Ive about had it with..ahem...you know. Download speeds as of late have plummetted. Im on a decent DSl and routinely get nice fast d-loads. The speeds have dropped to dial up like in the last few weeks and I only go there now if I absolutely cant find the file anywhere else. I humbly request ALL freware developers to post your stuff to sites other than these guys, its just frusatrating. I usually can get in after a few tries so that didnt bother me too much. I just see a lot of good stuff there that isnt getting uploaded to other "better"sites.Hornit

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My issue ver there is that I can never get in anymore- even on Cable and being close geographically.It kind of puts you in a position to pay for freeware. Whcih I refuse to do.Tim

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I don't know what to tell you. I've noticed a couple slow downs from time to time, but nothing consistent. I downloaded something the other day and got very good speeds on my cable modem.

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I agree Ken. I'm getting speeds of 150+ KB/sec which is about the best this ADSL connection will do. Very seldom do I see any indication of a slowdown.Trip

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For my below rant, you can substitue Tom Allensworth for Nels Anderson, and Avsim.com for Flightsim.com. They are in the same boat, as it were!Hornit,Nels Anderson, the webmaster of "the other site" (Flightsim.com for the uninitiated) is in a tough spot right now. His site is immensly popular- in fact, it is the most popular flight sim site on the internet. The site's design, ease of use, and content make it a great starting place for new simmers, as well as a great place for older ones too.For him, running his site is not as easy as opening a Geoshitties account and uloading his files there. He needs to have his own dedicated servers and staff to keep the site going.Here's where we come in. Ad banners are everywhere. It used to be that webmasters could make a good profit off those banners, to cover their costs while keeping the site free for users. Unfortunatly, these banners no longer work. Seldom do people click them (usually the number is in the 0.01% range) and it is becoming automatic to ignore anything the shape or placement of an ad banner (it's true, they have done studies on this). Even worse, pop up ads alienate customers, and newer ones, like the full screen float-overs can crash browsers.So- what do you do? I can't even begin to imagine what Nels pays for upkeep of his site. I know that I was quoted 600 yearly for my site, one which is so tiny, it's a speck compared to Flightsim.com. It comes down to this. Either you start charging, or you go belly-up. Look around the internet. Everthing asks for subscriptions, or memberships. Free email providers like Netaddress are long gone, and you can't even use half of Encarta Online without paying. Welcome to the aftermath of the .com crash.Take a gander at this article: http://www.howstuffworks.com/penny-per-page.htm It raises some good points, and gives some good alternatives. If you don't want to read it, essentially, it's raising the point- why do we expect something for free on the internet? You pay for books. You pay for cable or satellite TV. You even pay to talk to an expert. There's no free lunch, and reducing it simplisticly by saying "I hate memberships" is ignoring the roots of the problem.Sorry for running on and on, but there's a lot behind the scenes that isn't apparent, and is quite costly. But, when it comes down to it- if you don't like how they run their sites, you start your own and do better.You should be thankful that both Tom and Nels are providing so much to the community for so little (even for free.)

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Well said Mike.A lot of people IMO confuse paying for bandwidth and a service with paying for freeware.Sure these two sites are primarily for freeware stuff but as you so rightly point out it costs a lot to maintain sites as large as avsim and flightsim and the bottom *has* fallen out of the banner ads.The alternative?The only option I can see, for folk who will not or don't want to pay, is for each freeware author to upload to their own site and then the 'I will not pay' folk can trawl the Net looking for all the individual sites for their downloads.The other option is to thank Nils and Tom for providing such an excellent service by applying for membership and/or making a donation respectively.I now have my NOMEX suit on ready for the flames :( Come on guys, you get your planes, scenery, etc for free, will $30 or so a year really break the bank??????

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Amen well said Mike!Frank CubillosFSGateway

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I always download for AVSIM. Nowhere else do I get download speed of 550-650 kb/s with my Cable all the time. :-hahEven if I see something nice on another site, I come back here and search for it first.Take careMike

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I download 99 percent of my stuff from AVSIM. I can't even get access to flightsim anymore. F5 just doesn't work for me. I refuse to pay $30 bucks for something that's free here at AVSIM and just a single mouse click away.

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Well... if you find one of these designers who doesn't know about AVSIM's Library, encourage them to upload here! :) Trust me, once they've done it, they'll keep doing it. :-)Cheers,--M

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Well "mgdbottled",If everyone here would take your attitude, I wonder how much longer Tom would be able to feed the lot! Neither site requires you to pay, but they both appreciate the contributions, and make a lot of good use of them that benefit not only the contributors, but the rest of the site users as well. Nels system provides an additional benefit to contributors, by making it easier to access his very, very popular site. I am sure as the membership at Avsim grows, Tom is going to have some very hard decisions as well.The best thing the users can do now is try to help both Tom and Nels defer the trmendous cost of running their respective sites.Like someone said "THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH!!!!"http://members.cox.net/pstepanoff/images/OK_c2.gifPete S

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Pete, it's no use. mgdbottled finds every opportunity to ridicule FS.com. Doesn't matter to him what you say. I have used your argument on many occasions to no avail. In the end, let's hope that the majority (or at least enough to keep them going) support both FS.com and AVSIM financially. It goes to the benefit of our community.

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It's amazing people are still beating this poor ol' dead horse! All the whipping in the world will not get him back up on his feet. This question/statement has been asked/answered so many times that it could not possibly be counted. I know that if I'm not happy with doing certain things, I simply stop doing them. If you can't get in, and don't want to help support the site, stop trying. (Unless someone is holding a gun to your headm which I rather doubt.As has been pointed out, it takes alot of cash to operate sites such as Avsim and FS.com. Have you donated to this site, or are you simply looking for something for nothing?Darrell

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Until I start seeing a decent download rate I won't give'em a red cent. I'd happily pay a yearly fee here due to the usefulness and content of this website. Its a quality issue, I'll pay if its worth it. I was just making a plea for developers/modders/painters to post their stuff here....a better, more efficient site.Hornit

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>Well said Mike. >>A lot of people IMO confuse paying for bandwidth and a >service with paying for freeware. >The alternative? >>The only option I can see, for folk who will not or don't >want to pay, is for each freeware author to upload to their >own site and then the 'I will not pay' folk can trawl the >Net looking for all the individual sites for their >downloads. Reading what Mike and Vulcan wrote reminds me that common sense is still alive and well in some quarters. In particular, the quotes above seem to summarize the issue as well as any. It's too bad that people continue to start negative threads directed at other sites or individuals when they are undeserved. Flightsim simply does business a different way.

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But the question remains, "Have you donated money to Tom to support AVSIM?" Click the link on the front page an poney up some of those dollars/pesos/rubles/francs/pounds you say you're willing to part with. Both FS.com and AVSIM are excellent sites and both cost their owners a lot of money to keep up.I personally have given what I think is a fair amount to both sites and am quite happy for having done it. I get far more from both sites than what I gave.

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Hornit, I'm afraid you're missing the point.Until I start seeing a decent download rate I won't give'em a red centWell, until you give them more than a red cent, you won't start seeing decent download rates. :-)The team at Avsim is doing a great job, just like the ones at Flightsim.com. But if Avsim experienced the traffic that Flightsim.com did, it would be the same scenario- costs would mount so high for them, they have to start charging.I heard a wonderful quote yesterday. "When the gods want to punish us, they answer our prayers." If every developer started uploading here, and not Flightsim.com, this site would get bogged down pretty quickly too. And I bet you you would see a two-tier system.

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Edits for adding detail.Mike,"The team at Avsim is doing a great job, just like the ones at Flightsim.com. But if Avsim experienced the traffic that Flightsim.com did, it would be the same scenario- costs would mount so high for them, they have to start charging."I don't know where that assumption comes from -- and personally I suspect it may be faulty with regards to AVSIM. Considering that in total, AVSIM is currently in the 4Terabytes/month region of bandwidth usage (measured via SNMP monitoring across our three servers), this is probably higher than most of you would expect.Comparing the publicly available figures from each site (from the AVSIM Library statistics system, and FS.Com's "Yesterday's Hot Files" page), we get the following:* FS.Com: 25677 downloads, 57.176GB.* AVSIM: 29052 downloads, 56.339GB.This is comparing like-with-like, by the way (completed downloads, encompassing only file transfer bandwidth).There have been days in the recent past where AVSIM has transferred more than FlightSim.Com, based on this comparison.I expect a few of the cynics out there are saying "How do we know you're not lying about your figures?" Well, you could equally say that about FS.Com's figures. You use our sites, you trust our news, and from that, I figure you can trust our statistics. Neither of us have any reason to lie about how popular we are, or how much traffic we shift every day.The facts above -- which you can verify each day (AVSIM's stats are generated and updated between 4am and 5am Eastern each day, I have no idea about FS.Com) -- are the reason why I am surprised that people are saying that AVSIM can't cope with the levels of traffic that FS.Com gets. The fact is, we already do!AVSIM, even if library usage increases dramatically, have no plans to introduce any sort of charging or two-tier access to our Library system. You (our readers, downloaders and users) can rest assured that we have the means to support not only the load we receive at the moment, but also much, much more. Our financial infrastructure and networking arrangements are sound and would not be affected, as many people have assumed, by a large addition of users.Best regards,--M

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Matt Johnson,You wrote the following : AVSIM, even if library usage increases dramatically, have no plans to introduce any sort of charging or two-tier access to our Library system. You (our readers, downloaders and users) can rest assured that we have the means to support not only the load we receive at the moment, but also much, much more. Our financial infrastructure and networking arrangements are sound and would not be affected, as many people have assumed, by a large addition of users.That was the point I was trying to make in an earlier post in which I was berated for by a few (drobson namely and yourself). The question I was trying to get across is both sites in my opinion are about the same in popularity. So why is it Avsim is able to do it without a two-tier system and FS.com can't?

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This is all good news but all that really matters is that This is the place where the other members make you feel like their family and people are friendly polite and very rarly rude and that is worth any downloads, i feel so Whatever ,I am glad i came here and the other sites well......there links sorta got deleted :)Anonimus ;)

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We're pleased you feel that way, Anniette^H^H^H^H^H^H^Honymous. :)Seriously, while the numbers may give us some quantifiable feeling of "how we're doing", nothing beats hearing from the authors and downloaders themselves, and having an open and friendly community to which we can provide a service. :-)Cheers,--M

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I just tried looking for the earlier post (of which I do have a recollection) and failed to find it. We can't, and won't, answer policy questions for Nels here -- you'd probably get far better, and more accurate, answers if you asked him directly!The fact is that everyone who runs this type of site has a choice. AVSIM has chosen to make the Library available with a single level of access, FlightSim.Com has chosen to do otherwise. It's each site's own choice as to what policies it chooses to enact, and if Nels' infrastructure is such that a paid tier of file access is desired or required to keep his service operational, then so be it.I guess the saying is "different strokes for different folks". You folks have got the options between (at least!) two excellent file libraries, for which you all know the pros and cons of each. While it might be a publicist's dream to be able to enter the heads of every single potential customer and drive them to their particular product, the human race doesn't quite work like that :) -- and so you all have a choice, too -- you get to weigh up the pros and cons of each site, and decide which (if not both) you are going to patronize!And having both sites available is a great thing, IMO. I think having a little friendly competition out there keeps both of the sites "on their toes". :)Cheers,--M

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