Two America West pilots arrested for being drunk

[Guest mikehaska]

It's been mentioned at least twice that "it looks like 2 more slots have opened for those furloughed pilots."Just an anally-retentive sidenote, all America West pilots were brought from being furloughed just a few days before this event.But I agree, there are many other pilots waiting in the "wings" (heheheh) to take the place of these two clowns. Good riddance!

[Guest Twister]

drnn jjjl p;wp;wp q;q

[Guest Twister]

Hi Peter,I think you misinterpreted my drift - my post contained the same arguments - I agree with your logics.Take careTwister

[KevinAu 441]

>>But I agree, there are many other pilots waiting in the >"wings" (heheheh) to take the place of these two clowns. >Good riddance! I'm glad we can all take delight now in seeing these two people get fired, have their careers ruined, house foreclosed, and their wives divorce them. All because they partied too hard the night before and some security screener can once again prove that he has us all by the balls. Huzzah!

[Guest mikehaska]

Hey Kev- If your family was slaughtered by two pilots who were so drunk even an airport scanner noticed, you would be the first to complain.If you are a pilot, you are taking dozens, even hundreds of lives into your hands. You can't do that and be stoned off your ##### as well.Lets all thank our lucky stars that screener was paying attention, otherwise we would all be shaking our heads at the news of a 'terrible crash'I do take delight that those two irresponsible idiots are going to get fired, have their careers ruined, house forclosed, and their wives divorced them. It could have been a lot worse.Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

[Guest]

Regardless of these pilot

[Guest]

The worrying thing is that these guys probably thought they were doing nothing wroung following the 8 hour gap from drinking to flying.Not long ago in the uk a motorist was breathalysed on his way to work and found to be over the limit after partying the night before.While i can believe that ONE pilot with problems and a drink issue may be found over the limit, TWO individuals with unblemished records sound more like a mistake or misunderstanding.This makes me think that maybe the FAA are at fault by not being specific enough about the bottle to throttle timescale and the levels of alcohol you can consume eight hours before throttle.I am not a drinker and wouldnt want to drink the night before a flight anyway but usually like accidents themselves the actual reasons and blame is not always apparent at first glance.We are always to quick to be judge and jury without knowing the facts.Peter

[Guest]

A very hard journey-Just to fill in the blanks regarding the 1990 case at Northwest. One of the crewmembers did regain his wings and retired in '98 as a 747 Captain.Check out his story:http://www.avweb.com/articles/profiles/lprouse/Timothy(Nice to see you again Kathy)

[Guest mikehaska]

Tim-That story was hardly heartwarming:"They had more than a few, and got rowdy enough to cause another patron of the bar to make an anonymous tip to the FAA.""I drank real hard for those two years which immediately preceded the Flight 650 incident. I usually drank alone so it was unusual for me to be drinking with the other two crewmembers ""Q: What shape were you in when you showed up to fly the next morning?A: I was hungover and I felt it. When I look back on that now I clearly know that I endangered the lives of 58 people."This is so disturbing, I can't even begin to describe it. He admits to drinking before flying, and he even says himself he endangered his passengers.I don't think anyone will disagree that drunk pilots have no place in the cockpit.Here's where it gets sticky. He did his time, went through Alcoholics Anonymous, and re-earned his certificates. Does he deserve a second chance? I honestly can't say no. Life is making mistakes and learning from them. I believe he did learn from his major mistake, and that he has emerged a better person.But at what point do you say- it's too much? He knew it was wrong to fly drunk- he even lied to the FAA inspector. "an FAA inspector met us the next morning and asked about a crew that had been drunk the night before. I responded that we had been drinking but we hadn't been drunk. I look back at that now and it was an absurd statement."The pilots have to realize that we are entrusting them with our lives. I never drive drunk, never even think of it. So how can I trust my pilot isn't? Because he's going to get off on a technicality? Because his union buddies will fight to get him back in the pilots seat? As a flying public, we demand that our pilots be up to the task. That means training, experience, and the physical ability to do the job.If you aren't able to put your passenger's lives above your want to drink and party, maybe you should be looking for a new job.

[Tabs 2,790]

To correct an earlier mistake in this thread, the AAL 757 that crashed in Cali, Colombia a few years ago was NOT the result of an intoxicated pilot. I've read the CVR transcript and an analysis of that crash and basically they lost situational awareness in a non-radar envoronment and were relying on the FMC as their primary navigational device without backing it up with raw VOR data from the RMI reciever... They were flying an unfamiliar approach (not the usual approach into Cali) in the middle of the night in highly mountainous terrain and on top of that both pilots were executing FMC route additions and deletions without notifying the other of what they were doing. They kept saying "Where are we?" and "Something's wrong..." but just kept descending rather than climbing immediately, which is the first thing you should do if you've lost your bearings arround high terrain... The final mistake happened when the captain tried to enter the runway's outer marker fix into the FMC - he entered the two letter code, but there were other fixes in the plane's nav database with that same identification, and he just instictively chose the top one in the list, which was actually hundereds of miles away in Bogota. The plane, still under autopilot LNAV mode control, turned toward that fix in Bogota, sending them straight toward a huge peak. As the GPWS (Ground Proximity Warning System) went off, they tried to execute an escape manuever, but had forgotten to retract the spoilers earlier and were unable to gainthe altitude to clear the peak. The investigators believe that if they had retracted the speedbrakes they would have made it...

[Guest]

Yes Timothy, that is the Prouse to which I referred. Thanks for the link. (nice to see you again too!)Interesting comeback story

[Guest DNelson]

>>This makes me think that maybe the FAA are at fault by not >being specific enough about the bottle to throttle timescale >and the levels of alcohol you can consume eight hours before >throttle. >The FAA is very specific about this. The eight-hour rule is only the first of several requirements to be met. Even if you "pass" the eight-hour rule, you still cannot be "under the influence of alcohol", and your BAC cannot exceed 0.04.Dan

[CraigC 0]

Thanks for squaring me away on that, I thought it was .08 for some reason. The point of my post was more about the posters statement regarding Florida laws to operate equipment. The FAA comes first, and then whoever prosecutes can tack on the Florida law (Im not a lawyer, just how I think it should work) if the gentlemen have been uncooperative for some reason. I think they are going to have enough on their plate with the charges that stand now, they should be begging with their lives. Losers. (That last comment only stands if they are infact guilty. :))Craig

[Guest]

MikeWhere did I say it was "Heartwarming?"I know what that crew did was wrong. All I wanted to point out is that a serving line captain got through the "system" and regained his flying status.The World is made up of all sorts of people we have to trust with our lives. The problem with this is we have individuals who make stupid, dumb, idiotic, weird, no-brain-engaged choices.We don't have that mechanism in place that makes everyone think clearly through their actions. When we do, this World will be a lot better place.As far as "Is it too much?" question. That choice was made by the society and the representitives who allowed him to regain his ticket. If it had been decided his "transgressions" had been too much then he would not have been able to regain his ticket. It was also made by his fellow pilots who may have had to fly with him. I have never delt with the CAMI/FAA program on pilots convicted of DUI/FUI(?) but there seems to be a process and a program somewhere.To tell you the truth Mike, I have been asking the same questions in my mind as I read the article.Timothy

[Guest]

At your height and weight Kathy, I think lemonade could get you buzzed (big grin, ducking)(Have you tried that vanilla Coke?)As far as the regulations, it is a topic at our annual "Recurrent Training" held yearly per the FARs. It also has fun stuff like hazardous materials, medical "stuff", CRM, and other fun topics not covered in PCs (6 mos flying checks).Judgement is a very fickle thing.Timothy