737-700 - Spoilers - I know, I know...

[Guest rellehenk]

Glad it also worked for you guys!You're welcome :D

[SQUAWKIDENT 3]

Also had same problems - clicking on spoiler handle turns on green "armed" light but does not activate the spoilers on landing. The hotspot is a bit wide on my 2D panel - tried clicking the handle and dragging but instead ended up accidently pulling the port throttle lever down doh!Adam Moorewww.hhuk.netWin XP Pro - Dell Dimension 4500P4 2.54 GHz - 1GB RAMHiTech Radeon 128MB 9800Pro IceQ19" CRT 1600x1200 @ 100hzAudiophile 24/96FS2004 + UK2000 1/2/3/4/5/6/EGLL PROUK VFR Photographic Scenery 1/2/3/4UK VFR Terrain MeshUltimate VFR : RealAir SF-260Ultimate IFR : PMDG 737Ultimate FUN : RealAir Scout

[johndrago 4]

Thanks again Floris! Who knew something as simple as the clickspot would make the difference. The area below the speedbrake lever shouldn't be a clickspot!- John

[Bob Scott 7,722]

Two approaches flown tonight, and on both I did the click-hold-drag maneuver on the spoiler handle in the throttle quad pop-up window, rather than clicking just below the handle as in previous approaches. Had successful autospoiler deployments both times. And if it's any further help, I was standing on my left foot with my right hand over my head and facing away from Mecca at the time.Now...as I've previously posted, could someone tell me please why we couldn't have allowed programming a hotkey to put the spoiler handle into the armed state? Why do we have to engage in silly point-n-click masturbatics in a pop-up window to make this work right? This makes spoiler control virtually unreachable for the cockpit builder trying to use this panel. And why do we get a spoiler armed light when clicking on the clickspot near the handle, even when clearly the spoilers are *not* otherwise armed? Arrrrgh.Bob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

[crvm 0]

This is not a simple issue Bob, try programing it around what MS has done in fs2004 sometime ;-) But to answer your question in regards to **silly**Lenny-Thanks for your additional feedback- and the english is better than most.To further the discussion- it might be helpful if I re-explain (again!) the theory behind the spoiler controller in the PMDG airplane...We had a different system in FS2002- but with the advent of FS9, MSFS made some changes to the spoiler control logic that make it very difficult to work with from a developer standpoint. I won't go into alot of the details there- but suffice to say that it's something we are still pushing via our contacts on the MSFS team to get addressed... (more on that another time.)The manner in which spoilers are modeled in MSFS assumes that the airplane has a single spoiler mechanism that is controlled in full range while in the air or on the ground. (i.e.: You can go from 0-100% in all regimes of flight.)On the 737, however- this is not true. There are some spoilers that will only deploy when the WOW (Weight on Wheels) switch is depressed- and the remainder of the spoiler plates will only deploy through a limited range while in flight.In order to model this in FS2002, we used series of animation sequences within 3DStudio, and then by programmatically limiting the spoiler limits we could animate the spoiler movement from 0 - in-flight limit while in the air..and 0-full while on the ground.Then came FS9......In order to work around the "kludge" that became the FS9 controller- we found that we had to dramatically modify the interaction between the mouse-click, spoiler controller, animation sequences and joystick control. Even after a few hundred hours worth of work we were unable to come up with a desirable result that did not also require a complete rebuild of the airplane animation and center console code....So what we have in the airplane is a "compromise" between our desire to model the system effectively while not completely disabling the MSFS spoiler logic....From the standpoint of the guy who wrote that section of code- it's my greatest source of annoyance- a bit like accidentally painting a dimple on Mona Lisa.... The key is finding a way to overhaul the code without all the negative side effects. No small task!So best practices for the spoilers are as follows:1) Arm/Disarm using the mouse...2) Make certain that your throttle is well tuned.3) Make sure you are on the idle detent at touchdown unless conditions prohibit.We are designing a spoiler controller for the 747-400 that starts out by taking the MSFS weaknesses into account. Also- because it's design does not include the original work-arounds for FS2002- it isn't nearly as limited in scope as the controller on the NG... So we won't have this problem on the next airplane- and the lessons learned there can be ported back easily- if i do my homework correctly!As always around here- we are always tinkering....Robert S. RandazzoPrecision Manuals Development Groupwww.precisionmanuals.com----------------------------------------------------------------------Spoilers 101:=============The folks in Redmond made functional changes to the spoilers in FS9. Their changes are best described as "Bovine Scatology" of the sort that can only be produced by folks who are either lazy or incapable of taking the :30 seconds that it might have taken to consult someone who knows how they work....So right from the beginning we are dealing with a broken system.A couple of givens that might help you:1) MS "logic" on their spoilers works like this: If the spoiler handle is armed and the aircraft is on the ground, the the spoilers should be deployed to full throw.2) If the spoilers deploy on the ground, there is no way to stow them without using the "/" key.3) In flight MS "logic" will allow you to deploy the spoiles to full extend. If you did this in the real world, a bunch of guys in polyester ties would be writing reports explainint where the wreckage of your airplane impacted the terraine...We have tried to capture the spoiler "logic" that MS has left us with- and control it in a fashion that is more suited to airliner operations.Here is how it works:1) There is only one way to ARM the spoilers. Use your mouse on the 2D panel. Pull the handle to ARM.2) You can use the "/" ley to deploy the spoilers. YOu can also use the "/" key to stow them.3) It is important to note that if you use the "/" key to stow your spoilers- they will return to the state the spoilers enjoyed PRIOR to deployment. (Example: Handle was DOWN before deploy...The spoiler handle will return to DOWN. If the spoiler handle was at ARM before deploy, it will return to ARM.)4) You cannot deploy the spoilers to full extend in flight. We have given you realistic spoiler range in flight through a combination of animation capture and controls on the MS "logic."5) There is a microswitch in the throttle console that is used to detect if you are rejecting the landing. For a rejected landing- you REALLY REALLY want the spoilers to stow automatically. If the throttles are ahead of this point at any point while the aircraft is on the ground, the spoilers will stow....6) As described in the manual, you MUST ensure that your joystick throttle is in the idle position upon landing our you will not get the spoilers. (Read the Rejected Landing Logic above)That should get most of you working. Keep in mind that you may have joystick calibration issues afoot too.... so check those also!The spoilers are an area that we are working on still. We are examining the feasability of completely eliminating the MS logic from the airplane- but this is something that takes time to do... if we find it is feasible...I didn't go into this level of detail in the manual because I didn't think it was needed.... Clearly guessed wrong on that topic.But guys/gals- Read the manual.... There is alot of good information in there...Robert S. RandazzoPrecision Manuals Development Groupwww.precisionmanuals.comBest Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

[Guest jovabra]

Flight Simmers, PMDGWhen you armed the speed-brakes on a real Boeing aircraftyou've got automatic speed brake deployment when youactivate the reverser handle(s)Is there a option to program it?Grt Jo Va Bra

[Bob Scott 7,722]

Yes Randy, I understand that programming the spoiler control was not a simple thing. I've seen the above discussion before. You, however, are missing my point.With some expertise arising from a university degree in computer science, years of employment as an application programmer, and an FAA ATP rating, I understand both the nuances of the programming challenge and the operation of the aircraft system in question. I'm saying that if one can program the gauge to place the spoilers into the "armed" state with a click-n-drag mouse action, then one can also place the gauge into that same state with a key or button input. The spoiler control behavior is NOT the issue, the issue is how we customers interact with the control. There should be a key and/or button control available for the spoiler arming function...that would be SO much easier for the many folks who have programmable input devices...and keyboards too, for that matter.As I would envision it, the key control would be a toggle that works whenever the spoiler handle is in either the closed or the armed states. It would cycle the spoiler control logic state back and forth from stowed to armed...with resultant repositioning of the spoiler handle. If the spoilers are extended the key/button input should be ignored.The hard part--the coding of the control logic--is already built into the gauge. What I really really want is direct control over the spoiler arming state without having to resort to click-n-drag action on a pop-up panel. This is absolutely possible, and I would suggest not even all that difficult.RegardsBob ScottATP IMEL Gulfstream II-III-IV-V L-300Washington, DC

[crvm 0]

Well we are in total agreement on this Bob. I assure you that PMDG are very interested in making this more simple than a "click & drag" and hope the users line it up correctly solution. Lucky for all involved there appears to be more work on the NG in the future and PMDG do read our posts and concerns. I also believe this conversation has been on the right tract..Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

[Guest bobsk8]

Finally got my Spoilers to deploy every time. I went back to my original method of turning off A/T at about 100 feet, pulling throttle from about midposition to idle before touching down. They deply as soon a I contact the ground every time. :) :)

[Wolfgang Lang 17]

hello!the best things is, that i don