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Guest ryebred

Unable to climb to altitude in 10 mins

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After the latest update I noticed that I have been unable to climb to altitude as fast as I once did. ATC says to climb to FL in 10 minutes after departure but I can't seem to do that anymore. I ran several tests in various wind conditions to make sure but in all of them, around 26,000 ft, the climb rate drops to about 600-800 FPM. I tried playing with the target climb speeds. By default it is set to 315 kts. I set it lower but it still proceeded to climb slowly. Is there something that changed in the patch that would cause this? Is there some other setting besides target climb speed I can set in the FMS to achieve a better climb? Maybe the rate I am climbing is accurate but then how would one climb to FL in 10 minutes? Thanks for the help.Ryan

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I can say with 100% certainty that the performance matches the RW performance manuals so it's not that ;-) I don't believe default ATC ever asks us to climb to any altitude within a time frame. If you are in a hurry to climb bring up the CLIMB page on the FMC and choose MAX ANGLE, that will get you up in a jiffy. Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

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Ryan, are you maybe misunderstanding ATC when they say to "expect FL XXX 10 minutes after departure" ? This simply means that you can expect further climb clearance 10 mins after departure (in this scenario). This phraseology is (AFaIK) only used in the US.PS MAX ANGLE will get you to the highest altitude in the smallest travelled distance. MAX RATE would get you to the highest altitude in the least amout of time.Regards,Mark

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Hey Mark, how's that nifty 767 sim coming along? Can't wait to see it in all it's glory ;-) As to MAX RATE and MAX ANGLE, If real ATC requests "BEST RATE", he most certainly means "BEST ANGLE" which equals MAX ANGLE for the NG and which a 737 pilot would use to avoid potentail conflict etc quickly and certainly quicker than MAX RATE. But for our discussion MAX RATE would be a better choice since we are not trying to avoid anything... Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

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> If real ATC requests "BEST RATE", he most certainly means>"BEST ANGLE" which equals MAX ANGLE for the NG and which a 737>pilot would use to avoid potentail conflict etc quickly>and certainly quicker than MAX RATE. Sorry, neither of those is a true statement. If ATC asks for best rate, then that's exactly what they mean. Climb at the maximum RATE of climb you can given the conditions. They're looking at things in terms of time rather than distance travelled. Climbing at MAX ANGLE will actually get you to the desired altitude in more time than the MAX RATE climb.MAX ANGLE is essentially only used for obstacle clearance on a departure or missed approach. The rest of the time, MAX RATE or higher airspeed is what you fly.cz

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Hi Randy,regarding best angle / best rate:I think if ATC had the option between the two, they might actually go for best angle. But as ATC (at least over here) uses time to calculate conflict situations, they want best rate.This actually does cause confusion with pilots, as on some a/c you don't have a direct (FMC) figure for best rate, only for best angle (B767 as an example).regarding the sim:it's comming along nicely, but we are in no hurry :-)It will be a long (read L O N G) time before we are finished.Regards,Mark

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Are you even using VNAM Ryan. Without VNAV, it can seem like it takes forever to climb using just the V/S Speed. Try using LVL Change if you have trouble climbing.Nick B.Continental Airlines Virtual 737NG Pilothttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/800driver.jpg--AMD Athlon XP 3200+ @ 2.2 Ghz (Equal to 2.8 ghz)400W Power supply3x 80 mm Case FansSoyo VIA KT600 Dragon PlusnVidia GeForce FX 5200 128 mb2 x 512 PC400100 GB Western DigitalMicrosoft Sidewinder Precision 2

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I think best angle is climb as much as you can in the shortest distance and best rate is climb as much as you can in the shortest time. And ATC should ask you exactly for what he wants, best angle or best rate.Jaime.

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That might fly for VATSIM's ATC sir but if you have the chance open up Mr Bill Bulfer's 737 NG FMC Guide on page 91 where in fact this is exactly what he states. Plus you did not read my post correctly, on a NG MAX ANGLE = BEST RATE simply because it will get you UP QUICKER than selection of MAX RATE. How other aircraft operate is not in question and is indeed correct ;-) Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

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Ryan, Do you use any add-on weather programs like AS2004? If so, get the latest public betta for it at their forum. What may be happening is the TAT is far too warm for the altitude.....hence the lower climb rate. This was a major problem in their betas prior to the latest.Good luck,Paul

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> Plus you did not read my post correctly, on a NG MAX ANGLE =>BEST RATE simply because it will get you UP QUICKER than>selection of MAX RATE. You sure about that? Doesn't really seem to make sense to me... MAX ANGLE is going to adjust pitch and thus airspeed for the most altitude gain per unit distance across the ground correct? MAX RATE is going to adjust pitch/speed for the maximum attainable feet per minute in the climb correct? How then, can the MAX ANGLE actually be faster than MAX RATE? What is the point of even having MAX RATE if that were true?I don't have the Bulfer guide with me, but something seems really odd about this if that is indeed what he's implying...

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Yes I am sure that is indeed correct. MAX ANGLE gives you the fastest-quicker-faster than MAX RATE for altitude gain. What does not make sense? MAX RATE CLIMB This airspeed produces the maximum gain in altitude per unit of time.(Minimum time to altitude)MAX ANGLE CLIMB This airspeed produces the maximum gain in altitude for horizontal distance traveled.(Minimum ground distance to altitude) Looks pretty sure to me Ryan..http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/87365.jpgBest Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

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Hey all, thanks for the responses. Mark, you are right. I was mistaking expect FL330 10 minutes after departure to mean that they wanted me to be up at FL330 10 minutes after departure. The max rate and max climb make sense so I will try that and see what happens.I do use AS2004 Paul though I have used it for a while and this problem with slow climb has only started to occur in my last ten flights or so. Only things I can think of that I changed was I downloaded the latest PMDG update and I clicked on "Use Defaults" in FSUIPC like several people recomended for AS2004. It is possible that by doing that I somehow messed up the weather settings which may result in a low climb rate.Nick, I am using VNAV all the way up. I usually use FSNavigator which predicts TOC and I always used to reach TOC before the FSNav prediction but the last ten flights or so I have been well past the predicted TOC. I will try some of your suggestions and see if that works. Thanks for the help.Ryan

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Perhaps an image works best. DOes this look normal to you guys? 900FPM climb at 26,000ft? In this image I was only climbing to 28,000 ft but if I am climbing to FL330 then at around 28,000ft the rate drops down to 500-600FPM. The climb settings are left at the FMC defaults.

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Just a shot in the dark here, but what kind of outside air temp are you seeing? I have a faint memory about talk of too hot temps at high altitudes, not sure if it was caused by an earlier verison of AS2004, Vatsim wx, FSUIPC or whatever. Anyway, if the temps are unnaturally high the engines aren

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Theres a lot of points here,1. The set FL in the FMC is 28,000. You're at 26.1 2. Neither MAX RATE nor MAX is set3. speed is right on the nuts as per FMC control, therfore it can only give a ROC that is what is possible. It runs the same as VNAV but with user definable rules and FMC intervention. It seems re pic there are no rules involved.. Otherwise they would show. ( but in reality they actually do, you're expected at ??? @ 1810Z but your're 2 mins late. With Ms. Mother Nature involved I would say that is quite alright ) 4. Are you fully loaded? What is your loading?5. A computer, or FMC, is only as good as the person who programs it.weight will affect all, especially when relying on FMC IE VNAV.From the PIC and what I can decsern is that you are at a pretty hefty load, close to cruize alt. and all is GOOD. ( for a FL at 28000 and tanks at over 2/3s its time to go either further, or go higher, or both ) From what I understand with the max rate, max angle is:Selecting either one will disregard any fuel entries as per FMC control.1. Max rate = the maximum alt delta per time w/ a certain N1 engine setting I.E. greatest value on the VSI per engine setting.2. Max angle = the maximum alt delta per distance regardless of time but at a certain engine N1 setting. Meaning if the FMC will let you, it will climb at the greatest angle on the EADI at stall speed as long as the engines aren't overrevved, but it doesn't necessarily mean its the greatest FPM as in #1 but... It could be the same.#2 is used quite often in the U.S. but the values are given quite differntly in the FLIPs for example: the ROCKT1.ROCKT SID from cincinatti the very last note mentions: "A min of 35 NM is req @ 260 per NM to cross WADAL @ or above 8000...... for reference in the U.S. you may use any page in the FLIPs with preceding D I.E. page D1, from ther you could see if #2 is needed or rather #1 Regards,Roman(KGRB)http://home.new.rr.com/spokes2112/images/Image2.gif

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We can not just say one gets you up quicker to altitude than the other. One does it quicker in time, and the other one quicker in distance. Depending on what you need or what the atc asks you, one will take you to altitude before the other.And by saying quicker alone, i would guess its quicker in time, which its achieved with best rate.Correct me if im wrong.Jaime.

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Ryan......take a close look at the TAT it appears to be in the '+ ' range at your altitude. Get the latest beta from AS2004 forum and follow the Docs for settings. This will always happen if the TEMP is that HOT at that altitude....Also the weather reporting may not have 'valid' temp data. This is NOT a PMDG problem.....It's doing what it should be doing.I'm glad you also found the 'misunderstanding' with MS ATC......Best,Paul

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Your right Paul, I did another flight and the TAT was +5 through 20k up to FL330 where it went down to -11. What is a more typical TAT for these altitudes? I have the latest beta build of AS2004 and all settings according to the manual but still no luck. I will go bug the AS2004 people on their forum. Thanks for the help.

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Randy,Your post just goes to confirm what every pilot is taught from day one. Vx (max angle) gets you up in minimum distance. This is NOT what the ATC system is based upon. Vy (max rate) gives you maximum altitude gain per unit time which is all ATC cares about. Quicker is about elapsed time, not distance covered. The "Technique" block there is just flat out wrong. No en route controller will tell you he cares about angle. When he says "best rate", he's looking for MIMIMUM TIME to get through that altitude.Some DPs with a non-standard gradient (i.e. > 3.3%) may force you to climb closer to Vx during the initial climbout. After you've cleared your obstacles in that situation, all other climbs are done at Vy or higher speed.This isn't something that is airplane specific. The definitions of Vx and Vy are the same on all powered aircraft, both fixed and rotary wing, and are defined in 14 CFR Part 1.Finally, I don't quite know what VATSIM ATC has to do with this. Sure, my signature block shows my relationship to VATSIM but that has nothing to do with my posts. My real-world experience and certificates are much more relevant here but I don't see the point of putting them in the signature block.

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Thanks Richard for clearing the difference up and your real world status, I was quoting a pilot but fully agree with your new post on this...Best Wishes,[h4]Randy J. Smith[/h4][h3]P M D G's 747-400[/h3][h4]coming to a runway near you[/h4][/font color]Caution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)AMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

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