PMDG: How to change Radial for VOR 2?

[Guest Cantuezel]

Hi,just a quick question at this time: When changing the Radial for VOR 1 I`ve just to press "+" or "-" at the MCP`s *Course*-knob.But how do I change the Radial for VOR 2? I don`t see a second knob etc...I also tried to use the SHift, Control keys together with clicking on the Course-knob...but only the VOR 1 Radial changed.So can you just explain how to change the Radial for VOR 2 ?Many thanks! :)GreetingsSusan

[Guest kingairvols]

I am unsure of the exact limits, but my knowledge is that the second VOR is limited to certian functions when compared to the VOR I. I will try and read back over some articles I am thinking of in an effort to offer any help. Also, I may not clearly understand all that your question intells as I am not as advanced here as some.Take Care.

[Guest neeraj.pendse]

I don't know. Why do you want to know? It's not like you are trying to fly to an intersection manually? Or is it? I would probably like to know, but likely not use that information :-bang

[Guest normanvdm]

You can use the FIX page on the FMCCheerio,Norm

[Guest Knikolaes]

The FMC will not always be there. As a student ATP pilot or real ATP pilot, one would know the importance of having nav equipment just as available as in a GA aircraft.Thus this is a question I would love an answer to as well. Though I do not believe it is possible to effect VOR2 outside the FMC due to limitations of the PMDG 737.I shoot manual flights all the time using VOR1. One day I hope that VOR2 is functional like this for cross reference and VOR to VOR practice runs.

[Guest Cantuezel]

Hi all,I have asked that question because I think that it must be possible to change the Radial of the VOR 2 because of that:When you activate the knob "POS" on the Efis panel (I mean the panel left of the MCP) and insert a freq of a VOR in your vicinity the *Radial for VOR 2(!)* is been shown with a exact 3-letter code (e.g. 310 for Radial 310 degrees inbound VOR 2) on the ND at once!That leads me to the conclusion that the Radial for VOR 2 must be capable of beeing changed...don`t you think so...?And yes...for navigational exercises it`s a must (at least for me...lol!) to ident&fix once position with help of crossing to radials (VOR1+VOR2)when the FMC or VOR 1 fails etc...I am very interested concerning your thoughts concerning that... :)GreetingsSusan

[Guest tmetzinger]

Short answer - you can't.Longer answer - the NAV2 radio is coupled to a radio magnetic indicator (RMI), which functions much like an ADF - the head of the arrow always points to the station, and the tail indicates the radial you are flying on. This is COMMON on larger aircraft - few have the sort of OBS/CDI arrangement that is common on older airplanes. So it is possible to check cross-bearings, etc, using the RMI function (just select VOR2 on the EFIS panel), but you can't dial in a radial and watch a CDI center. You CAN watch the RMI needle move until it's on the radial you wish to intercept.For what it's worth, the new Cessnas with G1000 are set up in a similar fashion. You have ONE HSI-style CDI that can be driven by NAV1, NAV2, or the GPS sensor. Then you have a three needle RMI display that can be driven by the same sources and an ADF.Many many serious instrument fliers prefer using the RMI for VOR navigation and only use the crosshair-style CDI for ILS approaches where you need the left-right/hi-lo information.

[Guest Cantuezel]

Hi Tim,thanks for your answer...I didn`t know that todays modern aircrafts "only" have VOR 1 with OBS. But it is also nice that by pressing the "POS" knob on the Efis there even will be displayed VOR 2 *AND* VOR 1 RMI (both NAV-stations).GreetingsSusan

[Guest Knikolaes]

Aye thanks for the answer Tim. That cleared up a lot for me as well!!!!Crazy, too. I am a student pilot in RL -- I should have thought about that "using the tail" bit, but me mind was being lazy. Hopefully IF I ever get as far as instrument in real life, I will catch these things.

[Guest tmetzinger]

>Hi Tim,>>thanks for your answer...>>I didn`t know that todays modern aircrafts "only" have VOR 1>with OBS. But it is also nice that by pressing the "POS" knob>on the Efis there even will be displayed VOR 2 *AND* VOR 1 RMI>(both NAV-stations).>>Greetings>Susan>you don't even have to press the POS button - you can just select VOR1 to drive one RMI needle and VOR2 to drive the second one, assuming you don't need to have a needle function as an ADF pointer.The reason most big airplanes are set up this way is that normally when flying on instruments you're only worried about left-right deviation in relation to one selected course to/from a navaid... the other navaids you may be interested in are generally used for cross-referencing or defining points like intersections along your course.The new glass panels for light aircraft are set up "jet-like" for a couple of reasons:More commonality among aircraft - a G1000 is a G1000 whether it's on a Skyhawk, a Mooney, a Diamond Twin, a Caravan (coming soon) or a Cessna Mustang twin jet. This is easier on Garmin and the airframe manufacturers, but it's also a boon for flight training as well. Easier transition to heavy iron - it's a big plus for schools that take you from zero time to first officer in a transport (lots of airlines in the EU operate this way) to teach you "the right way" from the beginning.The EFIS/MAP option on the NG airplanes was a specific request from Southwest (and others) so that they could have maximum commonality with their earlier -200 through -500 airplanes. Training and standardization is both a big expense and a big safety factor, so the airlines try to be as efficient as possible.

[Guest Cantuezel]

Thanks for the detailed infos, Tim! :)1) What about you in real pilot life: Do you prefer glass-cockpits with digital instruments (or better screens) or the old "fashioned" analog cockpit instruments.A LH-pilot, who retired some years ago, told me one time that there have been tests and it seemed that the human eye/brain takes information quicker when they come of an analog cockpit instrument/display like mechanical Alt-/ Speed needels ("speed band") etc...What do you think about it? Do you agree or is that "only" the way "older" pilots think (of new technics)...? :) :)2) What about the pricing and costs: Are the costs for digital glass-cockpit instruments like PFD, ND (which function as many instruments by switching from one mode to another) etc the same like the sum you have to pay when buying a lot of analog instruments?GreetingsSusan

[michal 44]

>there have been tests and it seemed that the human eye/brain>takes information quicker when they come of an analog cockpitThat doesn't sound right. NASA and some other academic institutions conducted thorough studies and the best display, least confusing to pilots that allows quickes recovery from unusal attitudes and best situational awarness is Highway-In-The-Sky type of glass display. Chelton makes one. This recent non-stop flight around the world with no refueling was done with Chelton's HITS avionics. There are no HITS style displays available for large transport aircraft yet.>2) What about the pricing and costs: Are the costs for digital>glass-cockpit instruments like PFD, ND (which function as many>instruments by switching from one mode to another) etc theAs na example G1000 adds to the price about $25,000 over the sum of the old-style gauges it replaces. However you clearly get much more capability over what it replaced.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[Guest tmetzinger]

There have been studies showing that humans can find things that are "out of place" quicker using the round gauges, since you know that if your VSI is anywhere other than 9:00 that you're climbing or descending. This also can apply to airspeeds etc. On the other hand if I flash an analog altimeter on a screen for two seconds and ask you if you're at 1000, 11000, 21000, etc, that may be HARDER than reading the 21000 off the tape.However, the glass cockpits apply color codes or other techniques (like making numbers out of normal range blink, or be larger, or change colors).The Garmin G1000 is a big advance, and I think it's telling that it takes less time to take a brand new student and get them use to it than it does to transition a high time pilot with lots of round gauges time. I've got no doubt that the PMDG experience made the G1000 transition earlier - I did it in one third the time programmed by the syllabus simply because I'm used to the idea of displays that change functions depending on the software mode at the moment.So I think that there is a certain amount of adjusting that "old" pilots have to do - Cessna prescribes 4 hours of ground and sim time and six hours of dual instruction in the airplane for a proficient instrument pilot to transition to the G1000. Most of that adjustment is getting used to really using the automation. Much like an airliner, if you fly a G1000 Cessna on an IFR mission the autopilot goes on at 800 feet after takeoff, and stays on until you're at DA or MDA on final approach - that's the "proper" way and we'll have to see how it affects safety.As far as cost goes - there's about a 25K premium for the G1000 at the moment, but I think total cost of ownership for the airplane will be LESS with the G1000, because when you want new functionality it will be software driven instead of hardware, and you won't spend lots of labor dollars ripping out your DG to replace it with an HSI, then adding a stormscope, etc. So unless the avionics turn out to be unreliable (unlikely), it's a winner. The G1000 system with slightly larger displays goes into the Cessna Mustang light jet, and there's nothing different in the "guts" of the system except the software for the turbine engines and other airframe differences - and that's all software. Aside from getting more reliable hardware, it's hard to imagine how to improve on the Glass panel concept - you've virtualized your avionics. The one thing I wish the G1000 had in the cessnas I fly is a keyboard so I don't have to twist knobs so much, but I've heard a CRJ driver wish HIS airplane had knobs instead of a keyboard - so maybe both are the best option.

[saabpilot 0]

Almost, but not quiet right :-)There are course selectors in the real aircraft for both NAV1 and NAV2.NAV1 in modern aircraft display in left pilot HSI as in the "old times"- that is the "radial" can be set with the left COURSE selector.NAV2 displays in exactly the same way BUT on right pilot HSI and is set with the right COURSE selector.This setup is adequate for all types of IFR flying regimes.If you could display both VOR1 and VOR2 in the same way on both EHSI:s it would then look unneccessary confusing.As Tommy pointed out, cross-bearings are easily checked by use of the NAV2 "arrow" (which works in the style of an ADF pointer) in left pilot EHSI when NAV2 is selected.The RMI is mainly a backup for the HSI in a modern jet.I also remember that you was asking about what is the use of the F/D (Flight Director) system. Primarily the F/D is used when not in an A/P mode to give you visual horizontal and lateral commands and interface your brain with the steering wheel sort of speak.Very useful in an engine out at Vr in dark night at max crosswind and low cloudbase. Then the F/D helps you to keep on track and on V2 speed. (HDG/SPEED mode) All assuming everything is correctly set up on the MCP before you start rolling.The F/D when on autopilot also serves as a "visual" indication that the A/P is doing its job correctly.Best,BjornIf it aint Boeing I aint going :-)

[Guest Cantuezel]

Guys, thanks very much for your much detailed Information of the "real aircraft flying" concerning my questions... :)GreetingsSusan