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Do real 767 pilots use "Autoland"

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Does anybody know if real 767 pilots use the autoland feature of the airplane? I have a couple of videos of 767 flights where the pilots would fly the airplane - intercept the localizer and then set the autopilot to fly the approach. A few miles short of the threshold, the pilot would disconnect and fly the airplane manually. Just wondering if anyone knows if real pilots actually allow the airplane to land by itself? Thanks.

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I believe this may depend on specific airlines but based on what I read on this and other forums - autoland is used fairly infrequently. Michael J.

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Guest Ian_Riddell

>Just >wondering if anyone knows if real pilots actually allow the >airplane to land by itself? Thanks.There are several situations in which the aircraft have to be autolanded, "aircanada118".These include:#Autolandings in very poor visibility (weather dependent)#Autolandings to ensure the proper functioning of airplane systems, either routinely or following maintenance on a system associated with autoland.#Autolandings for pilot training/recurrencyAs a rule, however, you'll find that most landings are carried out manually.Cheers.Ian.

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I believe there is a currency requirement for both the aircraft and crew, although I'm not sure how many landings a month (or whatever period) are required. I got that fron an Air New Zealand B76 captain about 10 years ago, when I was lucky enough to get up front in one on a flight from YMML to NZCH.Bruce.

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>He has never used VNAV because it's unreliable. Always FL CH >or V/S. I also heard similar things from pilots of other commercial jet aircraft - they like to use V/S contrary to popular belief that this is a "primitive" mode.Michael J.

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Guest bisinchi

>He has never used VNAV because it's unreliable. Always FL CH >or V/S. Maybe it's because some pilots who used to fly on older types of airplanes are more used to V/S than managed vertical speed. Some of the pilots may be more confident in A/P modes that they could find in older types like V/S than in newer types of modes like VNAV.I don't know, I'm just guessing!!Francois

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Michael, I want to take control of the aircraft for manual landing at about 500 feet, but my PIC panel always wants to autoland -- the 3 cmd autopilot switches turn on by themselves on ILS final and the autoland light turns on at about 1400 feet. How do I set my autopilot to just use one cmd autopilot without autoland?Also, is there a single click that will disengage both the A/P cmd buttons and the auto-throttle all at once?How is this done on the real 767?Thank you for your input,J. Padron (KMIA)---

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Everybody - thank you so much for all your input. I learned a lot by reading your responses. Thanks for the great feedback!!

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From what I see and read, V/S is often used when descending to intercept the slope, rarely for climb to cruise. V/S comes in handy to make the altitude right to join the slope. For climb out, I see FLCH more common than selecting a V/S as the V/S will contstantly need to be changed when climbing in the higher altitudes to maintain optimal performance, FLCH would be the logical choice for climb, V/S more appropriate for slope or "hard" altitude intercepts where the "green arc" will show you where you will end up and when.Clear as mud?Rob.

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J. Padron,In the PIC-option you can disable the function that turns the other two AP's on automaticly.On the real B767 on approach the AP is turned off by a switch on the Yoke, so for you with FS2002, just assign Z or Y (don't know which one it is on the american keyboard, on a german one it's Z) to one of your joysticks or Yokes buttons. Then you are able to disable the AP exactly as the real pilots.Markus

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Guest Ian_Riddell

>Exactly, FLCH is preferred for climbs because it will >command pitch to maintain airspeed... I must be missing something here. FLCH seems to be very labour intensive for use in climb to cruise altitude. I'm just wondering how FLCH (or rather, the pilot) would handle the speed/thrust during the climb? What/who decides the aircraft's target airspeed, thrust and altitude? (Do the pilots use the FMC-calculated values or the pilots' own?). Also, if the pilot selects FLCH at, say 5000' with an MCP altitude value of, say 35,000' would the aircraft maintain the current airspeed up to cruise altitude rather than switching to a mach value? (VNAV does this automatically... but does FLCH?). If the pilot simply uses the speed/mach/thrust values computed by the FMC... why not simply engage an FMC mode (VNAV)? Not sure if the 767 is the same as a 747-400, but the 747 gradually washes out the thrust derates automatically as the airplane climbs... At a certain altitude, the derates will be washed out completely and you're left with full thrust (Does this happen with FLCH?). I can't recall at the moment if this is an FMC/TMC function or an EEC function (experts?)FLCH will give speed/mach protection, sure, but if you fly through turbulence with the airspeed sitting a few knots below the overspeed markers, aren't you asking for trouble?VNAV (for climb) sounds a whole lot simpler. It automatically gives target thrust for the whole climb, target speed and mach for the whole climb, speed/mach protection and autochangeover to mach (at the appropriate altitude)... all with very little input from the pilot after takeoff.Just "slightly" puzzled why any airline would use FLCH ;-)Cheers.Ian.

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One thing to remember here is that only a small percentage of ILSs are equipped for a full CAT III autoland. A CAT III ILS is calibrated for accuracy to a degree that a Cat I or II ILS is not. In the real world, an autoland on a non-CAT III runway is just not done.

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Guest HPSOV

FL CH is rarely used on climb, but it does happen.Most often in the early stage after takeoff, where you may need to fly certain speeds which cannot be programmed into the FMC.Such as a max of 220kts until established on a given radial, easiest way is to select Climb Thrust/FL CH at 1000ft, and select a speed of 220kts, then when established on the radial, select VNAV.When climbing in FL CH the pilot will select a speed he desires, which may or may not be the econ speed form the FMC (most often now, because as you point out if you're flying the econ speed why not just use VNAV).The washing out of derate is a function of the EEC, and is independant of which mode is used.V/S is basically never used on climb, the only time I can think of when it may be used would be if you were level at an altitude, say 5000ft, and were cleared to 6000ft, and didn't want to zoom up there at max climb thrust, you would just use V/S +500 or something like that. V/S gives you no speed protection, and does not command maximum climb thrust, so is not an efficient way to climb an aircraft to cruise altitude.V/S is also used for step climbs en-route.On the descent/arrival you mainly use VNAV, however FL CH and V/S will be used on nearly all descents as well, mainly in the latter stages when manouvering.VNAV on the 767 is a little primative, and requires some manual calculations, and a lot of monitoring (I'm told VNAV on the 744 is flawless). However if you understand the system, and program the FMC correctly then VNAV can be effectively used in all phases of flight. You will often see someone complaining that VNAV isn't working properly, or isn't doing what they wanted/expected it to do, in most cases VNAV is working exactly as it was programmed and designed to do, its that the pilot doesn't understand how VNAV works.

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Guest HPSOV

Thats not exactly true...ALL Cat II and Cat III approaches must be auto-coupled (flown on autopilot, and autolanded), so all runway approved for Cat II/III approaches are approved for autoland. (Actually I believe HUD allows you to manually fly to Cat II minima....).There are then a lot of Cat I runways which are approved for autoland, because the accuracy of the ILS is such than an autoland can be performed (however only to Cat I minima).

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Guest Ian_Riddell

Thanks for the insight, HP :-)Cheers.Ian.P.S. Re the washing out of fixed derates by the EEC.... Upon reflection, I can't seem to make any sense of this or envisage how it is done. The 400 AOM for example, mentions derate washout only in the FMC/Thrust Management sections, rather than in the engine sections. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask for clarification on the Bluecoat forum and perhaps a few of the other forums. Of course, the 747-400 may differ from the 767 in this respect ;-)(Edit after further reading) P.P.S. Don't know if this is relevant... I notice that the Bulfer Big Boeing FMC Guide says the following:"7.16Reduced Climb thrust is terminated at 12,000 ft (30,000 ft with revised TMC)"Engine/aircaft type is not mentioned, although there is a pic of 757/767 Thrust Mode Select Panel on the same page.

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Guest Ian_Riddell

>There are then a lot of Cat I runways which are approved for >autoland, because the accuracy of the ILS is such than an >autoland can be performed (however only to Cat I minima).I seem to recall that Sydney (YSSY) is only CAT I, yet is used by 747-300 pilots, at least, to revalidate the aircraft's CAT III status after maintenance has been carried out on A/P components. Automatic landings are carried out in relatively good conditions (weather-wise) on routine flights... and if successful, the aircraft is then ok to fly into an airport under CAT III conditions. The clear weather conditions allow the pilot judge the accuracy of the landing... and to take corrective action if the autopilot goes outside limits.Cheers.Ian.

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If I recall correctly, then the Canadair Regional Jet is actually certified for manual CAT IIIA approaches!Of course with the HUD...Those jets aren't equipped with auto-throttles and I believe cannot be autolanded.That must be one exciting approach, following the flight directors down to the runway and seeing it only in the last second. One heck of a short go/no go decision making time!

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Guest Ian_Riddell

>The washing out of derate is a function of the EEC, and is >independant of which mode is used. Further input on this subject... from the Bluecoat (FMC) Forum:Note here that I can't quote anyone on that forum due to Bluecoat forum rules, but, an (un-named) FADEC (EEC) specialist tells me that all Boeings control derate/flex through the Autothrottle (i.e. the 767 TMC... or, on a 747-400, the thrust management section of the FMC (see below)... moves the throttles to control derates). This indicates to me that the throttles should move as the derates are washed out (EEC's, as far as I know, can't move the throttles)I know that things can get a little confusing regarding the A/P and thrust control on Boeings, especially on a 747-400 where the Thrust Management Computer (TMC) is actually physically located inside the FMC. If a 747-400 FMC is totally kaput, there is no A/T control even for A/P modes. On the 767, the TMC and FMC are two seperate boxes. As I understand it, on a 767, the FMC talks to the TMC to tell it to position the throttles during VNAV ops. The 767 A/P also talks the TMC... in A/P-related thrust modes (including FLCH) to move the throttles.Hope this makes sense :-)Cheers.Ian.

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