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Guest hvanleusen

Manual approach

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Guest hvanleusen

Hi,how do you manage the following things when trying to hold the glideslope / loc. while in man. approach:1. Holding pitch: Do you use mainly the yoke (pulling/pushing) and the elevator-trim or only trim (as the AP does)?? ...together with the throttle..2. On final: How do you catch the centerline without looking at the flight-displays for the last second??? ...is missing a bit normal??3. On touchdown: What is your way to prevent from jumping...??( not 15 feet high ;) ) Just did read a story in PPRune where the Profs made their jokes on that happening in real world....Maybe the questions need three books to be answerd ..... even one would be appreciated ... :-lolThanks, H.

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Hi there,not being a real pilot, I don't know if this is the correct procedure, but it works for me in FS:1. I mainly use trim and (usually only minor) throttle adjustments.2. I find keeping the 'Manual/Auto' button on the Nav1 radio lined up with the centre line works quite well.3. At around 15ft, I reduce thrust to idle and trim down slightly to maintain my attitude (At this point your V/S should be less than 100fpm, if it's more, you'll have to trim up). On touchdown I pull on the yoke to keep the nose up (not raise it further, though...), until gravity takes over and she touches down gently.Cheers,Gosta.

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>>1. Holding pitch:I use the yoke (stick). Trim is just too slow and not precise enough.You first action should move the yoke then to the trim however glideslope adjustments are so small I am afraid trim used manually is too crude for that. How can you trim to adjust pitch 1 deg ? I defintely can't do it.>2. On final: How do you catch the centerline without looking >at the flight-displays for the last second??? ...is missing >a bit normal?? ??? Using the "landing view" helps land on centerline.>>3. On touchdown: What is your way to prevent from >jumpingIf you hit hard and jumped then either you did not flare enough or you flared late or you flared too early and lost speed. Practice your flare and never pitch more than 6 deg.Michael J.

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Guest EGCC

Fine in a Cessna but not in a 767 Ryan! Nor any other large jet aircraft I know of.> Pitch for Attitude, Rate of Descent and Approach Profile> Thrust for Speed ControlStraight from the Boeing 757/767 Flight Training manual.

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Yes, I wonder how many ILS approaches Ryan shot in a 767. He would have quickly found out that what works in a C172 may not work in a transport aircraft. Michael J.

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Hi,PitchOn final on the 767 if you are at landing configuration and the correct speed with the wind correction, you should be at about 2.5 degrees up. The reason for the VREF speed and wind correction is that you always have this repeatable, boring pitcjh attitude on fianl. Do not develop the bad habit of many pilots to fly with the trim wheel or switch, it is just plain wrong, you will never now how much input to give you the pitch angle you desire... It's always correct to set the attitude yourself. What you do is that you you hold the aircraft at a 2.5 degree pitch as you trim. Pilots develop a "feel" for the aircraft where you are constantly releasing pressure from the contrtols to the aircraft and back evaluating whether the aircraft is holding the attitude that you want it to hold if not you are contantly trimming until the aircraft stays where you want it to stay with no pilot pressure. You are always trimming. It's not even a thought!. This a a skill developed over many hours. That's why experience pilots tend to be smoother than newer pilots. Of course pilots that jump into autopilots soon in their career never develop this skill. A good pilot is contantly in a feedback loop with the aircraft doing so there is very little pressure on ther controls at all times. This is what passengers perceive as a smooth pilot or a smooth ride. Pilots with this technique are hard to differentiate from the aircraft autopilot. Flying commercial I can sometimes tell when pilots click the autopilot off because you notice the constant tugging and pulling on the controls after a smooth ride down. CenterlineSome pilots believe that because they seat on the left side they should be a little bit to the left of centerline. That's incorrect. You should put the centerline between you legs even as you flare all the way to touch down. So you do not need to be looking inside and you should not of course. TouchdownThe bounce happens from excessive speeds or a late flare. The larger the aircraft and the faster the speed, the farther down the runway you need to look to get depth perception. Also, use the GPWS altitude callouts to anticipate. Your pitch should not exceeed 6 degrees on the flare. To maintain this pitch you may need more and more pull on the yoke while your speed bleeds off.happy flyingPedro

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Of course in larger a/c that rule may not be as effective but give it a try. Although I have not flown a 767 in real life I have flown a few larger a/c in simulators. (A310, C130 etc...)When trimmed correctly and the power at the correct setting to get the desired sink rate you will notice that the nose will pitch up or down without effort and maintain the desired speed. Give it a try you will be surprised at the results.

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>Of course in larger a/c that rule may not be as effective >but give it a try. It is not only "not as effective", it does not work. I tried it many times since I am a "Cessna pilot" in real life and you bet this was my first attempt - to fly the 767 as a small GA aircraft. But apart from it, why insists on a method not used by pros ?Michael J.

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Whether you choose to use pitch to control speed or altitude depends on the part of the flight envelope you are in and the goals you are trying to accomplish.What you are describing is not at all appropriate for an aircraft being flown within the front part of the power curve desiring to hold an accurate, electronically defined glidepath.Jet transport type aircraft are designed with various expensive lift enhancing devices so that it's landing approach speed is well within the front side of the powercurve. Similarly, light GA planes will fly their ILS approaches at a faster speed that is well within the front side of the powercurve.The frontside of the powercurve allows a "speed stable" situation where it takes less power to go slower and more power to go faster. Therefore, it allows the freedom of using pitch to control your vertical rate. Since the goal of the landing approach is to maintain a descent path roughly equal to 700fpm down at typical jet speeds, a speed stable situation will allow easier tracking of the target descent rate. This is why jet approach configuration and Vref speeds are designed to keep the approach on the frontside and IFR students are taught to fly an ILS at 90kts.Approach procedures in jet transports are designed to keep you within the frontside of the powercurve where the more appropriate method to control descent rate is to use pitch inputs to control the vertical speed and thrust lever inputs to control indicated airspeed.This is not to say that pitch does not control speed, and in fact it still does in this situation, but rather as an answer to the question of what should be done in the situation of a 767 on final approach.

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Guest fwsov

Something you can do to have an incredibly stable descent down the glideslope is find an attitude and power setting that "works" and keep it. What I mean by "works" is one that will cater for a correct descent (about -750fpm) and a steady, on target approach speed. To go about achieving this on a good wx day I suggest establishing yourself on the glideslope and aim for -750fpm by adjusting attitude, once you have -750fpm start adjusting power to maintain your approach speed. The aircraft has now been set up for a pretty stable approach so now you want to hold it and to do this have a look at your attitude and remember what pitch seems to hold -750fpm (as stated earlier in the thread around 2.5deg) then have a look at your N1/EPR settings that are maintaining speed at that particular attitude and hold it. The aircraft should now, providing there is relatively stable weather, perform a pretty stable approach but remember that any corrections made in attitude also need to be made in thrust and vice-versa.Tracking the centre-line near touchdown, I usually look out the window unless we are talking about very low vis? At this stage of the game I usually focus my attention on airspeed and outside and to avoid bouncing, rule one is not to screw up the landing that badly that you do bounce and secondly to not allow the aircraft to have that much speed that it can lift off again hehe.Regards, Andrew

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Guest hvanleusen

>Do not develop the bad habit of many pilots to fly with the trim wheel or switch,...;)Thanks (to all). The procedure is probably so complex, I doubt I would make it using a real aircraft.....>Something you can do to have an incredibly stable descent down the glideslope is find an attitude and power setting that "works" and keep it<.....hmmm...Now I have a new question: How to react when setting flaps or gear change speed and pitch???>.. not allow the aircraft to have that much speed that it can lift off again hehe...<....maybe you better tell this my aircraft!! :-)>Using the "landing view" helps land on centerline.<...which landing view do you mean???Thanks again! Cheers.H.

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That rule is effective on all aircrafts (fly-by-wire aircrafts like the Airbus are exceptions, but they do not fly like conventional aircrafts (the 777 does)) from a 172 to a 747. Pilots are instructed early in their training to pitch for airspeed and use power for descent rate. That is because early in their training they want pilots to avoid stalls and use power to "make it to the runway or descend to the runway while using the pitch for airspeed" and lower the nose for speed protection. Later on during instrument training the technique changes to pitch for VS and power for airspeed. This is the fundamental approach control technique applicable to all aircrafts and is taught everywhere. Where were you trained and didn't they instruct you on this technique?, it's pretty basic stuff. I think pilots should only be taught the correct technique from the beginning. You say you have flown larger simulators but are you a pilot? Your comments make me think that you have not received formal training but correct me if I am wrong... BTW airspeed, VS and pitch all affect each other, this is just the technique that results in smooth aircraft control. Pedro

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Pedro,You are right I do not have my IFR, I am mearly just a "Cessna Pilot."What can I say. I was wrong, this was just the way I've been shooting my approaches for quite a while now. Finding a ratio that works and that seems to give my a stable rate of descent and airspeed. This method also seems smoother while making small corrections in the glide path rather than over-correcting with pitch.Best Regards,

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Ryan,I urge you to perform this experiment and compare with you Cessna experience.Trim the aircraft for a level flight and just add power without touching controls. In Cessna most of the change will be in aircraft climbing - any change in airspeed will be secondary. In 767 it will be just the opposite. You can also do the reverse and retard power and see what happens in either case. The Skyhawk and 767 react amazingly different.But like Pedro correctly underlined - whether it is Cessna or a big fat Boeing - you fly your ILSes pretty much the same way.Michael J.

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There is no such thing a just a Cessna Pilot, you are either a pilot or you are not. That's where you develop the skills that will define as a pilot for the rest of your career. I believe that the private pilot checkride is the hardest checkride. Why? that's when you where the worst at your "craft". 42 hours of flying time, WOW!. My easiest? the 737 type rating checkride My favorite? my instrument. I"This method also seems smoother while making small corrections in the glide path rather than over-correcting with pitch."Oh Boy, I love this line...Your pitch is as smooth as you make it. The overcorrection comes from you not from the method. Think about developing a connection with the aircraft. The distinction is that at all times the pitch goes where I want it to go. I have the aircraft on my control. The trim constantly relieves the pressure between my hands and the aircraft. That is very different than saying I move the trim wheel to keep me on the glideslope. Who's flying the aircraft? The trim wheel not you!. Great topic, best regards, ,Pedro

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"Cessna Pilot" was meant to be humour. I am a pilot. I hope this will help me later in my career.Point well taken, thanks guys ;-)

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All good posts here but one point not mentioned which surprises me, practice, practice, practice :-)I am not a rw pilot and never will be, and I am not very good at manual landing because I use the auto-land fature quite a lot, very useful for not upsetting TWR when flying on line :-)Some time ago Mike Bevington (sp?) started to organise on line flying for 767PIC pilots, one of which was a visual into Washington (I think). I tried this approach off line many times and could not get it right so asked here for help.With that help and a lot of practice my manual landings got much better. So my advice is to take this valuable advice from rw/virtual pilots and do plenty of manual landings and you will get there.Have fun

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Hey PedroWhat is up with pitch and power comments?Why would a flight school teach a new student something that is fundamental for smooth pattern management (ie pitch for speed and power for decent), when,... if and when that student advances to CPL and MEIFR, they would begin to teach the old dog a new trick? (power for speed and pitch for decent???) This makes no sense to me being a non-logical old artist #####. Now to add to this. I am PPL CPL student M/IFR? I have never heard this before...this to me sounds like a recipe for disaster in CATIII approaches when you have your hands on the quadrant.The old ##### :0)

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Guest CYOW_pilot

The pitch/power arguments go on forever and around and around.Just for info, the pitch for airspeed and power for descent or climb is also what is taught in the Canadian Air Force. However, as any pilot with experience will know, it all depends a bit on the situation and in practice the two are used together without thinking about it a whole lot. I have flown everything from C-150s to B707/AWACS and, although there are certainly differences in technique due to swept wings and engine spool-up times etc in jets, they still fly like airplanes, and contrary to what someone said earlier, if I am trimmed in level flight at say 250 knots in my AWACS and add power and don't change the trim, guess what? The aircaft will stabilize at the same speed (250 KIAS) in a steady climb. Now, agreed, on a ILS when you want to make very fine corrections and you are trimmed up at the correct speed, the quickest way to do it is by making a pitch change, but to maintain that new rate of descent, I will adjust my power as well.We could (and probably will) go on and on, but smooth accurate instrument flying requires you to know two things: The correct attitude and the correct power setting to achieve the desired performance. The performance instruments (ASI, VSI, compass, Altimeter)will tell you how well your chosen attitude and power are working, and if they are not, then make a change in one or both of attitude and power. And so the circle continues. For example, for typical landing weights in PIC767 I know that if I set about 2 deg nose-up and about 50% N1 and keep the turn index on the AI centred then I will get the kind of peformance I require for a flap 25 approach (about 140 IAS, steady heading and 700 fpm descent). If the performance is not keeping the bars centred then just make a SMALL change in attitude and/or power and check again. Eventually you will find a combination that works for the given conditions (in the real world there will be many more corrections because of turbulence, speed restrictions etc). I would recommend no more that 10 deg of bank and 5 deg of heading change to maintain the LOC and bracket your rate of descent between 500 fpm (if below) and 1000 fpm (if above) to maintain the glide path. Remember, small changes.I'll shut up now. Cheers,Kevin in CYOW

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