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hallelujah!!!!!.....................

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I just had a look at the new downloads. Another shareware! This time just to keep the correct Zulu time!!!Last week it was a sound file! What next?Can I charge money for posting on this forum?Some things about this hobby just get worse, not better!dek

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Dek, Your right but I dont think hallelujah was the correct choice of wording. I've not put my finger on what happening in this once great hobby. It seems to me more and more developers are looking for a Golden Cash Cow and we are the poor suckers in thier sites. The fact is a lot of what is on offer is CRAP, yes C-R-A-P, expensive crap with very few exceptions. Not least MS's new offering which seems to have caught a few off gaurd. Having a minimum spec of a 1.4 gig machine to play a GAME ? Furore within 2 days of release ? No doubt MS will again say CFS3 dosnt need patching ect, ect as they do with FS2002, but hey, thats OK, were just users, who gives a flying **** on what we think ? MS is either so arrogant (as I've found so many to be) or it's beta testers were so in love with MS they couldnt believe thier luck and wouldnt know good kit from bad. (there again MS perhaps didnt listen) Crappy and rude service from others. Some selling stolen materials. Lack of credible support. Some not usable,untested. It goes on and on.A while ago I said I hated to see the utter contempt some commercial developers had for the buying public, of course some developers cried, but here we are once again, same place, different tune. On saying that I ordered UK2000 part 5, as they are the only commercial developer who's kit I trust. It wont involve me having to reformat, order a new operating system or have to spend

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So is your beef with MS because of CF3? Crappy and rude service from others. Some selling stolen materials. Lack of credible support. Some not usable,untested. It goes on and on.Don't be so fast to paint EVERY MSFS payware author with the same negative paintbrush. There are some great payware authors out there that do provide stellar service and are quick to help a "customer" in need. Why not at least thank them in the same breath you use to bash them? My question is, who's putting a gun to your head making you purchase this C-R-A-P you post about? If you take the time to look through the FREEWARE file library here at Avsim and look at how many FREEWARE files are available for the past 2 days, there are 52 files that relate to Flightsim. Let's assume that that's the norm for uploads which would mean that on any given week we could expect to have available at our fingertips, close to over 260 FREEWARE files for us to enjoy. You somehow feel the NEED to purchase payware add-ons with this much FREEWARE available? Are you one of those types that if it's freeware, it can't be that good?X-Plane, and Combat plane or whatever it's called here I come. MSFS the kids and gamers can have.Seeing as your time with MSFS is limited anyway, this was probably a waste of space but maybe some more mature "kid" or "gammer" will have a new perspective on what's available to us "kids" and "gammers". Glad to see you're moving into what you consider the big leagues with X-Plane and that other sim you don't even know the name of........Don't forget to write.....

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Here, we go. Did I say EVERY, no.Did I mention or call into question FREEWARE no. Why? I've nothing but respect for the freeware guys, always have always will. In fact it's my opinion most freeware is better than the payware C-R-A-P out there. So "Gammer" please read before you comment, remember you aint the Sherrif round here no more.See ya Kid.George

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How many files per week are repaints of a jet liner? I certainly appreciate the work of any and all freeware authors, even if it is just changing a couple of lines on a tail to make it look better, but your inflating your numbers when you count all of those. There are not close to 260 unique new airplanes/utilities/sceneries for us to download each week.That being said, I think the freeware community in FS2002 is still going strong. I do think there are less freeware offerings than what we used to have in FS98, for example... but I think this is due in part to the ever growing complexity of creating quality add-ons.I however, do not like (and have never liked) the commercialization of the FS series. I have no bones to pick with commercial developers, they can do what they want - this is not intended as an attack on them, but I'm not happy that I have to occasionaly pay for an add-on that was once free, or an author that has been releasing freeware starting to charge. This is just MY PERSONAL feelings about this.I understand that it takes heaps of man-hours to produce quality add-ons... but why is this a valid argument only in flight simming titles? You don't think it takes heaps of man-hours to produce quality add-ons for other games that are given away for free? If anybody is familiar with other game genres, you can see unbelievably high quality add-ons, being worked on by teams of developers, all available for free. Some of these add-ons have even been considered to be better than the original game! Yet they still charge nothing for them. I have been a part of some of these development projects. A 'total conversion' for a game, that I was a member of the team for, was in development for over a year. I spent months doing sounds and soundwork in my home studio, and the thought of charging for my services was not even considered. We were all doing it for the community, so we could share our vision of what this cool add-on meant to us.I am currently working on an Aleutian Islands scenery upgrade. For this project I have learned scenery creation, already spent countless hours doing just that. Spent globs of time searching and finding good macros. Will probably spend gobs of time creating a couple of my own objects. And the scenery creation itself is probably going to be a couple of months. This is a lot of man-hours. I wouldn't even think of charging for it. I'm doing it for me, I'm sharing it because that is what I like to do. And if only one other person besides me likes it and enjoys it, it was all worth it.If I were to put it in a nushell, I would say that add-on development for most games works like the Open Source model... teams working together and sharing for free. While this occasionally happens in FS (the Dash-7 project), most development teams in FS are payware outfits.This 'paranoia' which exists in the FS community is a bad thing. It's too bad we've let a few rotten apples who have stolen and taken advantage of the system spoil the entire barrel. (A prime example is Steve Small pulling his freeware FDE files because of it - no attack on Steve, the man is a genius - but we all suffer by not having him make these available freely - and yes, I know you can still get them, that's not that point! - Just for clarification, Steve is not a rotten apple, just a casualty of them). Elrond has already mentioned this in past posts, but a shift towards a GPL style license and mentality for FS add-ons would be the way I would like to see it go. This would ease develepment of add-ons to a great degree, and promote even greater development, because we can build on the work of each other. I absolutely despise having to track down 4-6 authors just so I can release a panel. If it were GPL style, I could just issue the appropriate license along with my add-ons, and everyone would benefit immediately and in the future.I long for the day we can get high quality add-ons (like the recently released Seneca, for example) done by a team of freeware authors, released under a GPL style license... so we can all benefit immediately, and in the future (by continued development) from their efforts.

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George,You wrote:I've not put my finger on what happening in this once great hobby. It seems to me more and more developers are looking for a Golden Cash Cow and we are the poor suckers in thier sites. The fact is a lot of what is on offer is CRAP, yes C-R-A-P, expensive crap with very few exceptions.I wrote:Don't be so fast to paint EVERY MSFS payware author with the same negative paintbrush. There are some great payware authors out there that do provide stellar service and are quick to help a "customer" in need. Why not at least thank them in the same breath you use to bash them? My question is, who's putting a gun to your head making you purchase this C-R-A-P you post about?What part of THAT don't you understand?So "Gammer" please read before you comment, remember you aint the Sherrif round here no more.And this has what sort of relevance to this topic?Go play with X-plane!

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I got mine at K-Mart for $1 and it even has Sponge Bob on the face of it :-)

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George,I understand what you are saying and can relate to it in a number of cases, but to counter that, why there are still so many freeware authors is beyond me.Now, this is not directed at George, but I wanted to state it generally :-The general impression I get now is that a lot of flight simmmers expect everything to be available as a free download. I have been down this freeware route for a long time, and when all I get is blatant ignorance of license agreements and silly expectations of what I should be providing, for free, I simply am not going to do it any more.I only have two options left as I see it :-1. Don't release anything any more (keep it all to myself), or2. Make it shareware (payware for want of a better description).I am more likely to go with option 1. I don't really care if anyone doesn't agree with this. I'm not in it for the glory (if I were, I'd keep it freeware) but if I were to release anything else, it would most likely be payware. Would I care if no-one bought it ? No. Would I care if someone did buy it and was not happy ? Yes, but I would try to avoid that by providing adequate information up front and a demo version (which is difficult to provide with something like sound or graphics files).In the end, you pays your money and takes your choice. Option 1 is the likely option for me.Chris Ehttp://www.circle-software.co.ukhttp://website.lineone.net/~flightsimukAvoid AGP texturing = Better Performance ;)

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Chris, I dont think what you say is directed at me. I would be inclined to agree with what you say.Though on the whole the number of freeware designers is going down. On saying that there will always be others on the "up" to balance out the numbers. What I do see are unfair demands on current freeware designers, childish comments,(as we can see here on this thread) when they, the users dont get thier own way and a whole host of other insults ect. I have never written to a freeware designer except to say thanks, nor have in public passed undue comment.I've seen a huge change in this so called Community recently, I cant say it's moved on to better things and as you say every body wants free and have silly expectations. Either the loonies have escaped or users have gotten younger. One qote I read from somebody who had created a tutorial for repaints said "Hurry up as my time trial for PSP runs out in a couple of days".Regarding what you would do, this is why I trust to buy from UK2000 scenery, I can have a demo then move on to the "real" deal. I used to this with UK2000, now I just order, knowing I will always get 100% product service, such is my trust. (On one occasion I even recived a telephone call!) There are others I have bought (I'm not going to name them) and been very dissapointed for a number of reasons. Some (some replies can be read here at Avsim) offer very good service, some I've found condecending, arrogant and would never win a Mr. Personality award for customer service. If they produced the nicest thing ever, never again would they enjoy my patronage. There are other users who think the same as my inbox shows, there are others who still think they are a something and therfore think they can be clever and intimidating, again as shown here.Regarding some smart comments made by a name similar to one I see when looking at my shoes in my local pub toilet. X-Plane is technologically and dynamically a far more accurate simulation than the MS offering. Though I guess for some not even the endorsements of major aerospace firms will be enough to tell them otherwise, however for me with 22,000 hours and 33 years of flight experience it is rapidly becoming my first choice regarding accurate simulation. To cap off Chris :- Would I care if no-one bought it ? No. Would I care if someone did buy it and was not happy ? Yes, but I would try to avoid that by providing adequate information up front and a demo version.I hope you let me know if you ever do release something, follow the principles you mention above and I would gladly help you out.George

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"Having a minimum spec of a 1.4 gig machine to play a GAME ?"Unfortunately, a 1.4 gig machine is almost a low-end computer. Certainly it will be following the Christmas season.

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"I've seen a huge change in this so called Community recently, I cant say it's moved on to better things and as you say every body wants free and have silly expectations. Either the loonies have escaped or users have gotten younger. One qote I read from somebody who had created a tutorial for repaints said "Hurry up as my time trial for PSP runs out in a couple of days"."I agree 100%. Im 15, but I liked this place a lot more when there were only 1 or 2 people my age posting. Back then the forum was full of people who actually knew what they were talking about.Then around the time FS2002 came out it got invaded by retarded teens that just THINK they know what they are talking about :D. They are always getting "offended" at every little thing too. Thats why I only post like once a month recently, its just not the same :(.

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>I've seen a huge change in this so called Community >recently, I cant say it's moved on to better things and as >you say every body wants free and have silly expectations. >Either the loonies have escaped or users have gotten >younger. Must agree with you wholeheartedly George. It seems like when FS2002 showed up so did a burst of immature youth, then followed by more when the new forum system came about. Personally I don't like to consider myself youth, because while I'm far from mature, I at least view myself above those who manage to shorten the word "you" down to a single letter (because it saves so much effort!), or those who "own" so much payware but haven't actually shoveled out the cash to pay for it because their parents supposedly won't let them use the credit card. Either way, it has been heading downhill (the screenshot forum in particular).Scott

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Whew! I was beginning to think I was the only one who felt this way. I've curtailed a lot of my posting because of a general lack of courtesy. Not that I'm Mr.Perfection, but it just seems the language and maturity factor have gone downhill. Todd

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Sure....but to play a game...it's ridiculous. Have a little foresight here, if CFS3 recommended spec is 1.4, reality is 2.0. So when FS2004 is available what will then be minimum spec then ? So for some, if you realy want to play it, it can becaome a very expensive excercise. Others that dont use direct-X technology will run happily on half Microsofts minimums....see my point ?How deep in bed are Microsoft with Intel ?George

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I've also noticed the shift in maturity levels in the FS community :(I'm happy to see the younger FS users participating in this hobby: Just look at the B-52 created over the past year ... by a 14 year old! Some of their inputs are very commendable, but there are some who do nothing but destructive actions, and make their immaturity plain for all to see :(. They demand things, attack freeware authors, and use this community as a vent for their angst and real life troubles: We all have difficulties in this life, and there is NO excuse to take out your unhappiness on the people within the FS community :(I would recommend the following to all FS freeware creators, who are unhappy with the comments they receive via email: don't give out your email address to anyone, continue creating things for your own pleasure, and rely on a trusted group of people for constructive feedback :)Let's get back to flight simulation, not teenage angst issues :-lol

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George,I know all too well some of the companies (and individual) you are refering to ( I think! ).As far as unfair demands on freeware authors are concerned, I have experienced it first hand, this is why I now have the (justified) attitude that I have, and by no means is this an 'attitude problem' as some of those making those unfair demands may try to suggest.As for X-Plane, it's my favourite sim at the moment, and I have them all. I just keep going back to X-Plane.Chris Ehttp://www.circle-software.co.ukhttp://website.lineone.net/~flightsimukAvoid AGP texturing = Better Performance ;)

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It's more likely your a simmer and the morons are essentially gamers or gammers as one pointed out. (That dosnt mean gamers are all morons)Sure not all 15 yr teenies are idiots, a pal of mine has 2 of the blighters, one is sensible, caring and understanding, the other...I cant say the words here !Theres good and bad in all ages, creed, sexes, at the moment I think were hit with the bad. Why ? The number of flightsim related warez sites that keep popping up increase every week. I cant see a hardcore hacker getting involved in FS related stuff can you ?CheersGeorge

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Having read this thread, I never cease to wonder at the views of those who use this "Flight Simulator" and persist in viewing it as a game/toy. Let's face it, you want a game, go out and get SimCity2000, should go well with your machine. In fact it will probably just zoom along.However if you want the current level of clouds, FSAA, AutoGen, Terrain Mesh, reflective water textures, waves on the beach, aircraft fuse's that reflect terrain and clouds, ATC and all the myriad of other enhancements that the current version of MSFS has, get a machine that will run it. On the other hand, move all the sliders to the left and you will probably be OK.My current machine is my 5th specifically set up for MSFS, the first being a PC XT 4.77 Mhz with dual floppies and no hard drive and I used the original MSFS on it around 1985 (I think). It was amazing for the time. But it was what was required to run that version. I paid AU$4,000 for it only marginally more than my current one (see specs below).In short, that is the price of entry to use this sim to it's full potential. If you can't use 2K2 on your current machine go and find a copy of MSFS95. I am sure it will work really well on it, but don't whinge if the tools don't fit the job.As far as your lament about the change to more payware in the hobby, IMO it's a natural progression that some folks want to recoup the costs of developing what today hugely complex and is often (not always) a product with higher fidelity than freeware. Having been closely involved in the final stages of the development of a product that has won wide critical acclaim and seen the effort gone in to produce it, I would never begrudge the FSD guys one cent of the returns they recieve. Would you expect Hornby, Lima and Bachmann to give away rolling stock for the model railway hobby?The simple solution to this is don't buy it. No one is twisting your arm to go out and spend your hard earned cash. Stick with freeware. It will never go away.For what it's worth,Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australiahttp://members.iinet.net.au/~portercb/flyp...ta_tester_3.jpg[h3] FSD Aircraft "Around the world" flight.Now at OPQT (Samungli) Pakistan[/h3]Intel Pentium IV 2.26GHz(533)512K L2 Cache NorthwoodIntel D850EMV2-LAN P4 (533MHz FSB)Kingston/Samsung 256MB PC-800 RAMBUS, x 2 (512Mb)MSI-8872 GeForce4 Titanium 4600 128MB DDRHyundai -ImageQuest P910+, 19" Multi-Scan Digital MonitorIBM Deskstar 60GXP, 60GB HDD IDEHercules Game Theater XP, 6.1 speakers Dolby

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It seems the English language as a whole is breaking down lately. I've seen more posts with "hey so where did u get dat kewl airplane can. can u give me the link? thx!" than I'd like to see. The forums are supposed to be a group of people discussing their hobby but its turned into decoding fragments of English.[TABLE BORDER=0][tr][td]

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[link:www.fsworldonline.com/~timsfsstudio]Click here to visit Tim's FS Studio!] Updated August 31st!

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It's the language British teenagers use to text message (ie SMS) each other on their mobiles (cells). It's a fact of life, I just hope they remember what proper English is.I got into this hobby when I was 24. Didn't seem young or old at the time - just found a sim I liked and discovered there was this massive worldwide community behind it as well. I guess the 14 year olds will grow up and enjoy it for the same reasons as we do.Rob

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