I have the above system (AMD FX-51 3200) DirectX 9.0b with 9800 ATI Radeon, and the frame rates are excellent, although the picture quality is not half as sharp as Nvidia.The problems I have are:1.Very Nosiy Fan ! (like FX 5800)2.Excellent FPS 55 (1280 x 1024) + (up to 180+!!) 800 x 600 !!, but the images are not as sharp as the Nvidia cards. (I am on the verge of swapping it I think for 5950).3.The refresh rates on my Monitor are not good, I can never get the refresh rates above 70 hz at 1280 x 1024 in 32 bit when flying FS2002. Even though my desktop refreshes at 150Hz.I never had these problems with the Nvidia cards.I don't want anybody else to make the same mistake !Good Luck.Best Wishes,ChrisEGBB

I wish I can help diagnose the problem, but I'm clueless. I don't have those problems with my 9800Pro with refresh rates. The textures can be become blurry at times, but I think that's due to twitchy drivers more than anything else.I also own the 5900 Ultra, and I couln't be happier. FPS as well as great IQ and 120hz rate at 1280x960 rocks. If you do decide on Nvidia, get the 5900 Ultra. The 5950 is exactly the same card with slightly boosted mem and core speeds. You can do that on your own and save money in the process.Mike

>I don't want anybody else to make the same mistake !I guess many have made the same 'mistake' and are very happy. If you search this forum and MSFS main forum for all references to Radeon, Nvidia, etc you will arrive at the conclusion that FS users prefer ATI over Nvidia in a ratio like 3:1. Both for performance and picture quality. Even former Nvidia die-hards switched to ATI. Your problems may be related to something that has nothing to do with video cards. I personally own neither Nvidia or ATI so I don't belong to neither camp - just being a passive bystander who wants to learn what card to buy next.Michael J.http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

I guess many have made the same 'mistake' and are very happy. If you search this forum and MSFS main forum for all references to Radeon, Nvidia, etc you will arrive at the conclusion that FS users prefer ATI over Nvidia in a ratio like 3:1. Both for performance and picture qualityI would see that as quite a bias statement. I personally own both cards and can tell you simply that the IQ is almost equal (leans in Ati's favor) on both and the performance of my Ultra easily outshines the Radeon 9800Pro in the FPS arena, bottom line.I don't go for any particular brand as I have spent close to $1000 on both the Ati 9800Pro and Nvidia Ultra 5900, however saying a group of people prefer one over the other is like saying FS users are happier with Intel over AMD. There are pros and cons for both, Ati's Iq is stronger, but not by a substantial margin where someone can easily point out the differences. But the FPS counter doesn't lie, and under the same conditions, my Ultra is around 10fps faster (locked at 25). I personally am very unhappy with the 9800Pro in FS because it cost me 500 bucks and has terrible FPS in Flight Sim on a 3.06 P4. On the other hand, the Ultra sings along happily at the same settings and with all sliders maxed to the right.Just my 2MikeP4 2.4C @3.44 285FSBAsus P4C800 Deluxe1gb Corsair XMS PC3500 Asus V9950 FX5900 Ultra 256mb 500/950SB Audigy2 Platinum ExWatercooled baby!!!Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/chksix2002

>I would see that as quite a bias statement. Bias ? How ?. Go and do simple arithmetic of all posts (hundreds of them). Your FPS counter may not lie - so doesn't my post "counter". Michael J.

LOL Nice one....I didn't know you kept track of all of the posts. How do you search for those? Any particular method I might be made aware of? Everything has its pros and cons...from AMD to Intel, Kingston to Crucial, Ati to Nvidia, Antec to Lian Li, Enermax to Vantec, Asus to Abit, Sony to NEC, Klipsch to Logitech, D-Tek to Danger Den, SoundBlaster to Turtle Beach, etc etc etc.And if you have noticed recently, most complaints coming this way in the last month, at least in this forum, have focused mainly on the Ati 9800.Early on, Nvidia did have problems with it's bogus drivers, but those have been fixed in the 50's series. I can imagine why in the beginning many had complaints...I was one of those people too who hated my decsion to go from 9700pro to 5900Ultra....until I figured out how to tweak my card and the release of better drivers.MikeP4 2.4C @3.44 285FSBAsus P4C800 Deluxe1gb Corsair XMS PC3500 Asus V9950 FX5900 Ultra 256mb 500/950SB Audigy2 Platinum ExWatercooled baby!!!Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/chksix2002

ehh.. I'm waiting for athlon 64 3400, I was going to get radeon9800xt but... now I dont know, maybe I should get FX5950???Jacek

Nvidia FUD!!! What's that, you ask?FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt__________________________________________________________It is a marketing technique used when a competitor launches a product that is both better than yours and costs less, i.e. your product is no longer competitive. Unable to respond with hard facts, scare-mongering is used via 'gossip channels' to cast a shadow of doubt over the competitors offerings and make people think twice before using it.In general it is used by companies with a large market share, and the overall message is 'Hey, it could be risky going down that road, stick with us and you are with the crowd. Our next soon-to-be-released version will be better than that anyway'.___________________________________________________________ATI blows Nvidia away at half the price. Some folks have bought into the marketing and just haven't figured it out yet. Nvidia's large marketing share is dwindling fast. ATI has over 90 percent of the high end video card market now, has the majority of the mobility market and is rapidly acquiring the market share of the budget card market. Vison Tech, Asus, and now MSI and with many others have went ATI. They're smart enough to go with the winner. Nvidia's in deep doggy do. You want to pay twice as much for half the card, go ahead. I'd suggest you do your research before you buy. Ignore the marketing junk and the diehards.

Big, I highly doubt what you're saying. For one, Nvidia's stock is worth 4x as much as Ati, and if there was so much 'uncertainty' with Nvidia, many top line vendors would not be still including them as top gun equipment.Let's take a look at the HL2 debacle. Ati bought (yes bought) the rights for HL2 at auction for 8 million. All (yes ALL) the supposed benchmarking putting Ati on top with Hl2 originated with Ati and Valve...who are now million dollar partners. Do you not think that business relationship doesnt count for anything. Hate to break it to you, but it does. In fact, what was once a so called 'problem' with programmable shaders is now a 'thing of the past' (as quoted by Maximum PC) with the new driver set released by Nvidia. And THAT was the biggest argument ATi and Valve could come up with against Nvidia videocards running HL2 in DX9. Want to know something else? HL2 running in either DX 8.1 or 9.0 doesn't look much different.Ati cards DO NOT cost half the price of the Ultra...in fact they are priced evenly, so you are not getting twice the performance for half the price. In fact you're getting sometimes less and sometimes better performance for the SAME amount of money. Since we are talking factually, let's contiue. In the history of Ati, they have had ONE (yes one successful card) and that was the 9700Pro. The 9700Pro BECAME the 9800Pro with streamlining of its pipelines and increased core speeds. The 9800XT is the 9800Pro which was the 9700Pro, only with yet further core and mem clock speed increases. Get my drift? Don't believe me you say? Well it is all available on the internet if you're willing to do the research. The only card built off a new micron was the 9600 and IT had problems when first released, just as the 5800 did (building on the new die process). What Ati did (which was an ingenious business move) and Nvidia didn't, was release this new technology on a card that lied somewhere in the middle of the pack instead of a flagship product. Nvidia made the mistake of launching it's new die process (the 5800) as a flagship, and many who purchased cried foul because of the problems encountered, and I don't blame them.I own both cards, and there isn't a a really excited user in the world who can tell me one is better than the other. Both are equally good, and they EACH have their own pros and cons. To sit here and say Nvidia is in hot water is very laughable, considering they have had a history of winners only to hit a sour note once. The opposite history (history of horrific cards followed by one winner) is true for Ati.Would I take anything away from Ati? Of course not, they 9700 to the current 9800XT rocks and I would purchase them any day. I owned a 9700Pro (which died on me) and a current 9800pro. Does that mean Nvidia is out of the game? Hell no, considering their experience AND brute power of the 5900Ultra coupled with excellent driver support. It is my personal choice for my watercooled rig. Why you say? Well running on my computers, I rather take the sheer horsepower of the 5900 Ultra (which is much faster than the 9800 in terms of fps) than the slightly better IQ of the 9800pro...which currently sits in my 2nd computer and is a backup in case my water tower springs a leak or goes down.Remember, the worst thing anyone can do is jump on a bandwagon without having any knowledge of exactly what they're jumping into. I keep myself open to all suggestions, research constantly and form my own opinion about anything I purchase from the knowledge I've gained. And to this day, I will still buy products made by Ati and Nvidia same as I would Amd and Intel.To say one is killing the other (when that isn't the case no matter where your point of view lies) is ridiculous at best. Be a a really excited user of your money, and not for any specific company. The bottom line of business if that they'll do anything to convince a consumer to buy their products. And that my friend holds true (and still does) for both ATi and Nvidia. And another piece of fact for you: anyone spending 500 dollars on either video card today needs to have their heads seriously examined. In about 6-8 months, the new standard PCI Xpress will be released, which will make both the 9800 and 5950 obsolete and seem extremely slow and outdated.BTW, the deal between MSI and Ati has Fell through. Here is an article about it. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=13166Mike P4 2.4C @3.44 285FSBAsus P4C800 Deluxe1gb Corsair XMS PC3500 Asus V9950 FX5900 Ultra 256mb 500/950SB Audigy2 Platinum ExWatercooled baby!!!Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/chksix2002

... "Nvidia's stock is worth 4x as much as Ati, and if there was so much 'uncertainty'""Hate to burst your bubble; but ATI is and has been a larger company than Nvidia for some 6-8 months now. Also, ATI stock is selling for more than Nvidia Stock. Nvidia is rated "SELL". ATI is rated "Neutral" by the boys in the know.You can pick up a 9700Pro/9800Pro now for around $250 on sale at many places. The 9800NP can be had for $200 most anywhere. The 5950 which is the only Nvidia card that can come close in performance to these in DX8 applications is priced from $450-$500. There's no Nvidia card that can compete with any of the above in DX9 applications, yet. Bottom line, if you play older games/sims in 16bit color, buy an Nvidia. I still got my GF2GTS64 simply for older sims/games that can't be played on my ATI. Check out the poll on the right side at www.hardocp.com . That says it all. 95 percent ATI; 5 percent Nvidia. 5 Percent other with near 7000 votes. Looks like the FUD marketing just ain't a working to good.PS: you're right. They're both OK video cards. Just that Nvidia isn't the best anymore.

Same can be said for 128mb 5900 Ultras. Hello!!!!! And here you go in case you still think Ati is worth more. Nvidia isn't worth 4x as much, but about 20% more. Also, take NOTE of the volume of shares which is at least THREE times as much. As of closing today:http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/53060.jpgThe 5950 which you have mentioned is on par with a 9800XT, BOTH costing the same amount. A 5900Ultra 128 is around $280 on NewEgg, SAME as a 9800Pro 128mb on the SAME site. I still dont get the comparison you are trying to make. And like I said earlier, the DX9 and programmable shaders has been put to BED with the new driver set, and even quoted as so in the latest Maxmimum PC article, which also is unbiased (they DID name the 9800XT best videocard of 2003 yet their dream machine featured the 5900 Ultra).Still want to go on the assumption of websites and a really excited user jargon? HardOCP is in FACT known to be a biased ATI site as one would only need to read their articles or go to their forums (as I AM a member). You can't argue sense with those little boys no matter how hard you try in the forums. They are as stupid as they are arrogant. However, NASDAQ doesn't lie or take sides. Looks like ATI didn't have such a good day.Oh and btw, I play FS9 with every slider maxed in 1280x960 32bit and it runs circles around my 9800Pro by around 10fps. When doing the same thing on my 9800Pro on a 3.06 P4, the 9800pro not only crawls but has serious driver bugs. If you want to see the IQ of my FS9, do a search in the screenshot selection with my name and you'll come to some pictures. Or click on my webshots link below and have a look at the Flight Sims album.And every other game from Max Payne 2 to Battlefield 1942: Desert Combat plays with all sliders maxed at 1600x1200 32bit res. MikeP4 2.4C @3.44 285FSBAsus P4C800 Deluxe1gb Corsair XMS PC3500 Asus V9950 FX5900 Ultra 256mb 500/950SB Audigy2 Platinum ExWatercooled baby!!!Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/chksix2002

Look at the market value. ATI is worth more ie: bigger!!:ATI: $3,643,610,400 and growing. PE 124.38Nvidia: $3,324,316,500 PE 34.5I know which one I'd buy if I was in the buying mode.http://quotes.nasdaq.com/asp/summaryquote....elected=ATYT%60 http://quotes.nasdaq.com/asp/summaryquote....elected=NVDA%60

Again doubtful. You are excluding the ONE MAJOR FACTOR that determines that estimate..and that is TSO. Ati has twice the TSO volume of Nvidia, which would make it LOOK worth more or comparable. If Nvidia and Ati had the exact same TSO with the given estimates, Nvidia's market value would be worth twice as much, literally. Sigh...........Here is the definitionMarket Value For NASDAQ-listed securities, the price per share of the specified security multiplied by the total number of shares outstanding (as used in the calculation of NASDAQ index values) for the specified security.

I know which one I'd buy if I was in the buying mode.>>>>

Are you really so sure?Sorry Bigshot, I worked on Wall Street for three years and know how to read these numbers.MikeP4 2.4C @3.44 285FSBAsus P4C800 Deluxe1gb Corsair XMS PC3500 Asus V9950 FX5900 Ultra 256mb 500/950SB Audigy2 Platinum ExWatercooled baby!!!Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/chksix2002

"Sorry Bigshot, I worked on Wall Street for three years and know how to read these numbers." Good for you. That would have been way to much stress for me. All I have is a Master of Science in Economics with an emphasis in the financial markets and a Juris Doctor of Law. My Graduate Paper was titled "Welfare Implications of a Personal Progressive Expenditure Tax vs The Progressive Income Tax". Stuffed with Mathematics, little of which I remember anymore. I never sold stocks or had any work experience in the field. I practice law and don't pay much attention to the markets anymore. Not enough time. But I think I know how to read a stock report and certainly know the higher the PE, the better. I used to follow "Value Line". PE is/was a good guideline to follow when making decisions. Used to be the case anyway. Both companies are OK. Just in a risky business. That's probably why ATI is/was rated by the boys in the know as "Neutral". I don't want to argue anymore!! Let's just say, they're both OK and leave it at that.

Good for you too. I majored in Aerospace Engineering as well as flying at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach Florida, and returned to NYC to pursue a masters in business while working for the American Stock Exchange.That's all I was trying to say. They are both good cards.MikeP4 2.4C @3.44 285FSBAsus P4C800 Deluxe1gb Corsair XMS PC3500 Asus V9950 FX5900 Ultra 256mb 500/950SB Audigy2 Platinum ExWatercooled baby!!!Pics: http://community.webshots.com/user/chksix2002