Hi guys; To begin; lets not have any FLAME wars over this as I value all of your opinions and backgrounds. BTW any one using an AMD CPU is welcome to jump in as well. My current system is ..ASUS A7n8x-x..AMD3200+..ATI9600XT..1024RAMwith nothing OC'D. Now to the crux of the matter and this is mostly for Greg and Alex.How much of an improvement did you see when you upgraded your videocards. IE; When I upgraded from an Nvidia FX5200 to the ATI the result wasDramatic. Very much less was any improvement in my upgrade from a2400+ to the 3200+ CPU. Now I'm fairly convinced that any improvement I'll see, based on my experience, will be via a video card upgrade. And for Par Oqvist my question is how much improvement can you giveto your CPU upgrade,without taking into acccount the video upgrade that you evidently made at about the same time. If possible I, (and am sure) many others would be VERY interestedin a progression of your hardware upgrade's... and the results of each step. Thank you in advance, I have profited from almost everythingI have read on this site.....with the possible exception of the guywho said that the tire smoke on landing was caused by burning wheelbearing grease. :-erks :-lol :-badteeth Denny

Denny,I would like to give you a clear answer but that is a highly subjective matter. First of all my system is very, very special and I guess not comparable to most of the rigs. I will try to sum up my hardware and software as far as it may have an impact on fps.Hardware XP3200+@210MHz (2310 Mhz), 1024MB, Asus A7N8X-E, Nvidia 6800GT, TrackIR, approx. 9 GoFlight UnitsMonitor1- 24"Widescreen Sillicon Graphics for primary view running in the VC exclusively @1600x1000x32Monitor2- 19"TFT with EloTouch (Touchscreen)@1024x768x32 running an engine and avionics panel with lots of gauges (this almost cuts my fps in half). SoftwareActiveSky 2004, Ultimate Traffic, Active Camera, RealityXP GNS530, RealityXP WX500, and WideFS, ProjectMagenta GAIFR (running the primary flight instruments on a 2nd computer,, DF's C310 flown from the VC, FSNav, FS Global 2005 mesh, LC files for the whole world, lots of highly detailed sceneryWheeew..can't get rid of the feeling I forgot half of it. As I said this is all stuff I consider to have an impact on fps. I spare myself all the other stuff :-). O.K. now the impact of the conversion from the 9800XT to the 6800GT. I would consider the impact dramatic. I have since then gained approx. 30% fps. Means in an environment where I was in the high 20s I am now in the high 30s. In an environment where I was fluctuating around 15-18 I am now in the low 20s. For some that might not be dramatic at all. But for me it makes all the difference between a stutering mess and a smooth flight. I just can't stand a handflown approach with fine control inputs and suddenly the screen starts to yerk.But here comes the reason why this is highly subjective. When I initially plugged in the card I wasn't impressed. I gained only a few fps and the gain in IQ and smoothness did really not make up for the expense. This was the wake up call for me to completely re-tweak my system. I have since then:1. Shut down all unnecessary services (made a special hardware profile for that). I did that once with the 9800XT but could not notice any noticable difference. I simply believe that the Radeon was operating at it's upper end anyway. Therefore no improvement.2. I reset the PCI latencies to 32. When I initially instaled the 6800GT it was set to 248 fo the card.3. I compressed my FS folder.4. Installed 32bit clouds from SkyWorld instead of the dxt super high fps clouds I had before (wasn't able to do that together with ActiveSky with the Radeon fps would have dropped dramatically)5. Set the hardware rendered lights to max.6. Reinstalled my chipset drivers.So you see a lot of changes. So what comes from the tweaks , what comes from the upgrade? Hard to say. How much impact would the more detailed clouds have with the Radeon 9800XT? Dramatic. And then there is the fact I totally got rid of the blurries. Texture loading is a lot faster too. The clearly visible border between high res and low res mip maps is also gone (I hated that with the Radeon). These are all things that do not measure up in fps.All I can say is that for the first time since I am running FS9 and even FS2K2 I am completely satisfied with my performance given my setup.But!!!! Your mileage may vary.Alex

Alex;In a nutshell then .....you haven't a CLUE? :-lol I,ve only been involved with computers for about three years now,prior to that it was automotive engines/performance, and over the prievious 40 or so years have been constantly ASTOUNDED at exactlythe sceneario you have described. Been quilty of it myself more timesthan I care to divulge.:-bang I know you should only change ONE thingat a time in order to asess its impact but there is such a temptationto do several things at once espcially since its FREE and reversible...IF you can remember WHAT THE HELL you modified to start with.:-xxrotflmao Thanks for the input;Denny

Well to be honest I can

Hi Denny, I'll add two details I whitnessed, you might find interesting (well put question btw): 1st situation, tested on a P4 3Ghz almost 9 months ago: A 9800pro vs. 9600pro @ 1024x = no difference at all in framerates or performance. Taking it to next step, 1280x, again, no difference between the two. However, only WITHOUT weather! Hehe. WITH weather, the 9600pro folded at 1280x... 2nd situation, with the a.m. P4 and an AMD64 Clawhammer 3200 (754) and otherwise identical hardware: NY area and KJFK: With the 9800pro @ a given setting and @ 1280x = avge 12-14 fps. With the AMD64 = ca. 18-21fps! By now, ca. 7 months later, I think I've added a few more. Likely, a lot due to drivers, etc. I also found some switches in the bios. New platform, new learning process... I could imagine Alex saw such an improvement, because his new video adapter really is very suited for 1600x. IMHO, @ 1280x, a 9800pro or alike does fine. I tried to run mine at 1600x but gave up, not enough pipelines... I'm stll mostly CPU-limited @1280x with my AMD64-3200. Good luck and kind regards Jaap FlyTendo: Abit KV8-pro v.1.0; 2x1GB Apacer(w/ Samsung chips), AMD64-3200 Clawhammer CPU(1MB), 9800pro @ 1280x960 6xAA/8xAF; P-ATA drives; Audigy2; 350W PSU; 5 case fans; win2000sp4.

Hi all,I make my upgrades in small steps on a pretty steady schedule. When I received my X800 Pro last summer I tried to be scientific about upgrading to it... received it as a gift from my wife and really wasn't sure if it was worth what she paid for it. I benched my 9800 Pro (softmodded to XT w/ 128MB) in this sim with all of my preferrred settings and then with the sim choosing the "default" settings for my hardware. I saw approximately 20% gain in FPS at my settings and 25% at the sim's defaults with the X800 Pro. After modding the X800 Pro (it is a VIVO w/ 1.6ns memory) to XT-PE specs I saw approximately 35% and 40% respectively.But that didn't mean much to me. With my 9800 XT I locked my frame rates at 24 and they're locked now at 27 (a 12.5% gain). What I really gained (and this was brought up by others in their replies) was flexibilty. I can do alot more with the X800 XT-PE than I could with the 9800 XT (and it was no slouch... I was quite happy with what that card did for me).The rest of the hardware is critical, too. A balanced system is very important to success. I'm ready to upgrade my CPU and motherboard right now, but I'm being patient until DFI releases their 939/nVidia chipset board. Once they do I'll drop a fast Winchester into it and I'll be good to go. Everything else on my system is ready for the next CPU/motherboard.For me, though, the key to successful gaming runs far deeper than just the hardware. System management is critical. I see far too many people spending far too much money on hardware trying to find that "sweet" spot. And it's very much like chasing ghosts. I wish more folks would pay more attention to the OS config and maintaining a clean system. I see so many threads about simmers being unhappy with their system's performance, and many of them have waaayyy too much happening in the background when they fly. I run a lean system. We use a router here, so a firewall isn't critical to me. I have only one USB device (my flight controller) plugged into my computer. I don't have alot of peripherals in my case. And that case is top qaulity with great (modded) air cooling. I use only top quality PSU's, so the power my system gets is clean and smooth (especially important when loading the system during gaming). I tune my OS and make sure there isn't any useless junk in my registry.I'm a hardware geek, which means that I not only enjoy building and maintaing my systems but I also enjoy learning more about how it's done. Alex mentioned PCI latencies... I learned of their importance a couple years ago. So setting those latencies is part of my standard tuning routine. I studied the relevance and importance of PCI latencies, and that was fun for me. Alot of folks don't share that enthusisam (and that's OK).So, in the end I spend far more time maintaining a clean system than I do chasing ghosts of performance. Many years ago when I raced bicycles I learned that getting 90% of the desired performance was relatively cheap and easy. Realizing that last 10% was costly in both time and money. I'll get to that 90% level with my wallet, but the last 10% I save for making all the hardware and software play well together.Hope this helps,Greg

I've been exchanging some e-mails the past hour or so from someone (outside these boards) whom I directed to this thread. Thought I would add some more.There is rarely an "absolute" fix when it comes to gaming. Alot of variables invlolved, one of the most important of which is "what works for each user". I recall a recent thread here where Cruachan, michael, and myself were discussing AA and AF levels. They both prefer to use 6X AA and lower AF, whereas 4X AA and 16X AF Forced works best for me. Nothing wrong with either choice... all that matters is that each user set-up the rig and sim to work best for them.Last week Alex ressurected an old idea of compressing the FS9 folder. I had tried it in the past, and I tried it again last week. Alex was obviously pleased with the results on his system, yet it did nothing for me. The important thing here is that he made some of us think (and some totally disagreed with his logic), and there's nothing wrong in that. Par too has his own philosphy... he likes being on the cutting edge of the technology (and he's got some really cool bits in his computer). His expereince is deep, and his perceptions are rooted in his extensive study and knowledge. Jaap's posts are ones that I always quickly go to. I sometimes think he has more knowledge in one of his fingers than alot of computer owners could ever hope to gain. There are others here, too. Folks like Cruachan, who places more emphasis on making his aging box of bits work even better than he originally hoped by simply keeping it lean and clean and well tuned. Mike has great knowledge and experience with the nether regions of this sim... he's great at asking questions that make folks search out answers. Gotsa has alot of experience on these computers. W2DR could probably teach the folks in Redmond a whole lot about the Windows operating systems. W.Sieffert is by my book a walking, breathing enyclopedia about computers and this sim. There are numerous other folks on this board with great experience and knowledge (sorry to have left them out... getting late here and my brain is going fuzzy). But I'd be willing to bet that each of us has our own way of doing things, both in this sim and in our computers.No doubt hardware always makes a difference in this gaming hobby. But I hate to see someone who has a mid to lower high end computer spend alot of money on a piece (or pieces) of hardware trying to attain nirvana. I want to first make sure they have their system well configured for gaming. And to that end perhaps the service offered by FS-GS is the best "hardware" upgrade available today. It is common sense (and knowledgeable) system and sim tweaking that yields great bang for the buck.So, Denny, I guess my question to you is this... is your current system (and sim) configured to get the most out of your hardware? If so, then I don't see how you could go wrong upgrading the VC. Even if it does perform better than your current CPU/MB/Memory (and it will... these current gen cards are very, very good) you will still be getting the most out of your system. You'll like the flexibilty the card brings you. But spending that hard earned money on a new peice of hardware to "fix" problems will yield only dissapointment. Better off throwing some of that money toward FS-GS to get the system tuned right for the hardware you already have.Enough rambling from me...Cheers to all,Greg

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Yes what hardware you put in it is paramount.Memory is nothing you really can save on because if you buy non FX CPU:s they are locked at either 9 or 11 multiplier. So your RAM has to be able to achieve high Mhz numbers.Best ram to get for a mainboard that supports voltage up to 3.5 optimum is BH 5. It

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Yeah. I think you should go either watercooling or phase change. Water cooling is of course cheaper and quite good bang for the buck. Especially if you build your own you can have some serious cooling for very low cost. Won

Great post Greg and I particularly liked the bit about that guy Cruachan, 'who places more emphasis on making his aging box of bits work even better than he originally hoped by simply keeping it lean and clean and well tuned'...lol But, joking aside, you have hit the nail on the head. I have just installed HL2 and half expected to be disappointed with the performance on my 'aging' rig. Not really sure why I was thinking this way as Doom 3 has been and continues to run very well after some initial judicious tweaking following installation a few weeks back. What a pleasant surprise to find that HL2 also seems to run quite impressively on my setup. It's early days, I know, and it may be that things will change as I travel deeper into the game, but so far so good and my box of tricks has again received an affectionate pat for all its efforts to please its lord and, at times, insatiable taskmaster. ;)As many will now be aware, installing HL2/Steam is quite a long drawn out business. Part of the procedure involved completing a brief questionnaire about my system and hardware and I was then permitted to compare my nuts and bolts with those currently owned by others out there. Contrary to what I had assumed, in fact my hardware setup is still mainstream and those cutting edge high flyers are still in the minority and represented a relatively small percentage of those that completed the survey. This will change as the months go by but at least I can now confirm that HL2 will run very satisfactorily on a balanced well maintained system, such as mine, that is tuned to extract the optimum performance from its components...without overclocking!An example of how our mileages can vary: I followed the discussion about latency settings. Well, believe it or not, I found that raising the setting from 32 to 224 for my graphics card led to quicker texture loading in the sim. Benching with 3DMark03 at different settings made no significant difference to my overall scores and the individual tests showed very little variation. Again its early days, but initial results in the sim at least are promising and I have not yet noted any negative effects. We'll see. It is possible that the new drivers from Omega (thanks for the heads up) may persuade me to return to a setting of 32 but, for the moment, a higher setting seems okay.Regards,MikeP4 2.4GHz (400FSB), 1Gig PC2100 DDR Crucial, ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB (Omega 2.5.90), SB Audigy (5.12.0001.0443), Hyundai ImageQuest Q17 17" TFT LCD 20ms Monitor (1280x1024x32), Gigabyte GA-8IRXP MoBo, Ultra-Quiet PSU 400W, WinXP Home (SP2), DirectX 9.0c, AGP Aperture = 128MB

"...I particularly liked the bit about that guy Cruachan, 'who places more emphasis on making his aging box of bits work even better than he originally hoped by simply keeping it lean and clean and well tuned'...lol"I'm laughing with you, Mike. My CPU is a year old, memory 15 months, and motherboard 18 months. Doggone parts are starting to grow whiskers, for cryin' out loud.Still runs great, though, so I'll just continue Spitfiring around the virtual sky until DFI gets their act together.Cheers,Greg

Greg and all; WHEW! Post a simple question in a motel in Kansas City (where everything is up to date), finish your pint of Kentucky Sour Mash,getup and take the short drive to Denver, get online and just lookee here. WOW! Don't know where to start. First thanks to all. Second.. If I go from 2fps to 4fps thats 100% increase WOO-HOO! Greg, I had a session with Mike Greenblatt and it did not turn out all that well. HOWEVER I would recomend his services to ANYONE! Sound stupid? Well he knows what he is doing and by the time we had finished this eight hour ordeal he and I were both convincedI had a hardware problem. BTW cost me nothing. But he's gonna get aXmas gift. I first added a PCI sound card, disabeling onboard sound.Big improvement. Next got rid of FX5200 vid card. HUGE improvement. Then tried overclocking AMD 2400+. Next started accesing NforcerHQtrying to restore now dead ASUS mobo. New proud owner of second A7n8x-x Mobo AND brand new BIOS SAVIORx( Which I'm going to use to build second desktop so I can haveDOUBLE the FUN? Mike and I had a good laugh about 6 hrs into our ordeal aboutrunning FS2004 with all the addons available maxed out on a CRAYusing LAKE MEAD as the cooling device. Of course by this time it was0530 CDT. That will give you an idea just how serious THIS GUY IS! As an OLD hotrodder I know most improvements are not hardwarebut TUNEUP. Every NASCAR/CART/IRL/NHRA racer out there has accessto the same parts, some make better use than others. My system has NOTHING running not even TCP/IP cause I dont accessthe internet with the desktop. I've used System Works- disk only,IO system mechanic- Regclean, OH and empty all temp and prefetchbefore using FSAutostart on my GAMING only software profile. I'm not being sarcastic here but if there is anything else youcan suggest I'm all ears. I had FS9 running on a Dell Dimension 667.Had Win 98SE teaked to the max. I had cheated and installed a vidcard, which acording to Dell couldn't be done. I could get 15 20 fpsat my local rural fields. 5 in heavy clouds. I felt pretty good after reading that guys with twice my systemspecs were'nt doing all that much better. SO thinks I? why not go forMORE POWER :-jumpy Since the Dell was not really upgradeable I started looking for components.WEELLL I found out that one could buy a preassembled unit for lessthan the parts plus shipping would be. I unpacked the new unit, hookedmy monitor up, fired up, installed FS9, looked at the default slidersettings and thought NAAAAAHHHH! NO WAY! This almost the same as before. 667mhz to 2400+ AMD.... 64 MB PCI Vid to 128MB 8XAGP...354MB PC100 RAM to 256 PC3200RAM. NO WAY! well the visuals were not much better..the sim was not much smootherand forgot to mention upgrade from win98se to MUCH BETTER XP! After tweaking XP...disableing most of the services..and addinganother 512RAM got CTD. Took 3 months to figure out the 512 brand nameRAM wouldnt run @ 200 MHZ...passed Memtest86 24 hrs fine. Cut mem speed back and no more CTD also almost no other difference. Bought1024 Corsair VALUE SELECT which runs fine at 210MHZ ,thank you Lord. A couple of things in the software line have really made an improvement. Intalling SP2-Installing fs9.1 and two changes to thedefault xml one was a download lowering tree and other definition,and the other was a recomendation to drop a value in a cfg fileconcerning power line values. I cant ever seem to find things backwhen I need to but I could just kiss the guy for the power line idea.Also in the same vein someone-somewhere told how to flush defualt xml.Pain in the #### but works 100% Immediate 15fps on final at KPHX. I could kiss him too. :-badteeth My unit right now will maintain 20fps 100% AI ,fair wx theme intoRWY 25L KPHX daytime, all sliders maxed...if I FLUSH xml turningfinal.:-violin I don't really pull double trailers on ice, I just do it on a simulator.:-badteeth Denny

Sounds great. Now perhaps you could tell me about the flush xml thingie :)As for DFI Greg. It