HD4870 X2 on nForce Motherboard - technical question

[TechguyMaxC 516]

>>Lots of great info there, thanks again Nick. Can't wait to>>try out FSX with some new tweaks!>>>You may want to take a gander at this...>>http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...?num=1208959973>>If you are on XP, follow the first 2 posts to the letter and>use O&O Defrag 8.6 (link for 8.6 is 3-4 posts down) good for>30 days and you can try the process.>>I assume you being technically in the know you have already>cleaned up the start registry for programs that are not needed>at boot>>Do be aware.. shutting down services past what I posted in>that thread is not only useless, if you shut down the wrong>ones you can actually force Windows to run worse>>and>>A service can not be shut down correctly using software. One>must disable the service through the LOGON TAB and reboot or>the service still places a footprint on the system. >>>NOD32 is the only AV I know of which does not impose a>footprint that reduces FSX or FS9 performance which is why I>suggest it. That and I have never been hit with anything using>the AV. The AV is the only thing I suggest.. not the security>suiteNo worries on the OS tweaks, I'm a PC tech by trade (have been for almost a decade now) so I've got Vista 64 setup just as I like it. Thanks anyway though!

[Soeren Jensen 3]

Thankyou very much for clarifying Nick N and Techguymaxc, I think that would be very helpful to make my final choice:-) Jensen

[Guest Nick_N]

No problem JensenDo keep in mind that even with that any 1GB card, a 64bit OS and a high bufferpools setting is not going to make FSX run like a dream. It can be nice to have that reserved VM especially if you may intend to run several high res monitors and with those factors in place the higher VM card can present solutions however in a single monitor situation at 1920x1200 widescreen 1GBVM is not needed and will never be used in FSX as Max said.When it comes to ATI or Nv you need to consider the use. If you want the better perf in games like Crysis the ATI x2 is the card to go with however if this is a primary FSX tower Max is quite correct and the Nvidia card is a better choice.

[geoffco 0]

>Finally>>Someone with some solid tech ability and understanding on this>board!>>absolutely agree with dropping the Nvidia board>>>I would probably go with the 280GTX, a Rampage Extreme (get>BIOS 0801 which solves memory chip stability issues) and>Mushkin DDR3 1600 which will do both 1600 7-7-7 1T @ tRD 6 and>1800 8-8-8 1T @ tRD7>>Put a Q9650 or if you wish to throw down the cash a QX97.. run>it at 4050GHz @ 1800, 3.6 at 1600 for the Q9650.. (QX97 has>the multiplier and will do 4050 at 400FSB or 450)and rock on>>I cant comment on the Patriot memory however be aware to take>full advantage of a Q96 (no multiplier change) you must be>running 450MHz and the Rampage will do it.. just helped>someone set that clock up at SimV>>you may need to work VTT, CPU GTL and NB GTL a bit to>stabilize that at 1800>>here are the numbers with a Q9650 and the 2x2GB Mushie's on>the 0801 BIOS @ 1800>>http://www.simviation.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/Ya...5569427/105#112>>>1600 is strait forward.. no noise trimming>>You will need a good CPU cooler.. the OCZ Vendetta2 is a good>choice. >Loads of info here - thanks very much.I'm happier with the idea of the Rampage Extreme and I'll take the advice and stick a GTX 280 on there instead of the ATI monster...Still not sure if I'll go with my original plan for an E8600 or go straight to quad with a Q9650 (the QX is really too much for now).Info that was missing from the first post was (by the way) that I'll run XP-Pro 64 and a fully tricked out installation of FS9 (for now). I have thermaltake watercooling already which I'm going to take from my current machine...I'll probably be back with more questions since I've not got any experience of overclocking these core2 chips... Quite looking forward to learning the 'art' once again - I enjoyed overclocking my last machine and it has served me well :)Cheers,Geoff

[Noel 4,563]

>Something that hasn`t be discussed much, is the image quality,>or the sense of colours and depth in the picture. And I would>very much appriciate if you, or anyone else who has these>gpu`s, would perhaps comment on that.Hi Jensen,Little acknowledged is this issue re ATI versus nV: the difference in IQ that is very frequently acknowledged has more to do with hardware than Windows drivers. IQ in late model nV cards is very excellent compared to 6800's and earlier, but this still is not the issue now. All you have to do is note how your POST screen looks with any late model ATI versus at least up to 8800's nV cards. ATI's IQ in the POST screen is razor sharp, and nV's is soft and slightly fuzzy. This difference persists when the Windows driver loads, and the net result is a sharper, higher contrast image, that in some ways can look more artificial, yet to my eyes, looks just plain cleaner. I've noticed this way back to earlier Radeons, when nV cards were very much inferior in terms of IQ. I maintain the difference is LESS SO today, but again, still persists regardless of driver revisions so far. I think it has to do with RF shielding, or RAMDAC, or some other hardward component. My last ATI card was an AGP 1900XL Pro or whatever I can't remember now, and it was clearly (ptp) nicer IQ-wise than my current 8800GT. I have been waiting & hoping the 4870 or x2's would be able to handle FSX because I would definitely prefer the IQ of ATI, but alas, I guess they still don't run FSX well by comparison to my lowly, $130 8800GT. That's bizarre! To be honest tho, I have not seen how the 280GTX looks (I would look at the POST screen first to test this) so who knows, maybe after 20y, nV has discovered the cause of this discrepancy with ATI and addressed it.On the other side: I have a 55" Sony XRD projection TV, and IQ is similarly "softened", and so looks much more like film than does some LCD displays, and to enthusiasts, can be preferred. It is still (3y later) a really super TV image. Likewise, some may find nV's "softer" IQ to be more photo-like, than the razor sharp IQ of ATI. Even so, I've tried both in the PC world, and definitely prefer ATI--in ALL PC games.NoelQX9650 w/ Retail HSF|ASUS P5E3 Premium WiFi|4GB Muskin Ascent 7-6-6-18 1T DDR3-1600|EVGA 8800GT|Seagate SATA 2 x 2|Seagate Cheetah 15K.x|XP Pro SP2|Vista 64--maybe never to be installed

[Soeren Jensen 3]

Hi NoelIt was something like that I had on my mind:-) I honestly don`t know what IQ a new 280GTX would provide, even if it`s a lot faster than the ATI`s.Some of the hardcore experts in here, have assured me that bad IQ from Nvidia is a thing of the past, and I think I am going to take my chance with the 280GTX.:-) Jensen

[Noel 4,563]

Hey Nick, I would like to try for a little higher FSB. Right now, with the timings I use (below), and my QX, I can only get 399 or so without MemTest errors. I have set the vDIMM at 1.90, it's max rated for warranty purposes. tRD at 6. I have the NB voltage at 1.41. My QX is running whereever I want to run between 3.0 and 4.2Ghz, with max vCore at 1.40.In order to get to say, an FSB of 410, what strategies would you employ, and what parameters would you adjust initially?Thanks in advance,NoelQX9650 w/ Retail HSF|ASUS P5E3 Premium WiFi|4GB Muskin Ascent 7-6-6-18 1T DDR3-1600|EVGA 8800GT|Seagate SATA 2 x 2|Seagate Cheetah 15K.x|XP Pro SP2|Vista 64--maybe never to be installed

[peppy197 165]

I tried bothNV's performance while in "fly-by" mode gave an almost seemless appearance whereas the ATI (4870-1G) had some noticable micro-stutters.That is what led me to chose a 260 maxcore.

[Guest Nick_N]

Hey Noel399?You should not have any problem hitting 400 and even 450 on that board (with the right 1800 memory). The sticks you are using do 1800 on the Rampage Extreme with a little help in CPU and NB GTLvref tweaking.What I see is you have reduced timing and I do understand why. Every little bit helps as we have discussed in the past. However you are on DDR3 now too.I think most of your hold is in voltage. NB will probably need to come up to at least 1.45-1.47. With 1800 it would need to come up to 1.55 which is the max I would run on that chipset without a fan on the heatpipe over the NB.If I remember correctly the x38 has a PONR of 80-85c on the NB and I would keep it below 62c just to maintain a cush. Try the followingFirst, just to get things set.. put the memory back to 7-7-7Processor temp stays 75c and under with a full load test. I use OCCT for that. CPU PLL 1.55v ( safe range is 1.5 to 1.6 MAX for 45nm CPU)FSB TERM (VTT) 1.28vNB (experiment) 1.45-1.55v.. I would say this should be good between 1.45 to 1.52 which are safeOn NB and CPU GTL Voltage Ref

[Noel 4,563]

>>>>>Hey Noel>>399?Yes, it loads XP no problem even up at 415 on these settings, but MemTest fails quickly. At 399, I get no errors on MemTest. I usually run at 398 just to give it a little room.>You should not have any problem hitting 400 and even 450 on>that board (with the right 1800 memory). As noted below, I have 1600 memory. I have read on the Mushkin site from one of their tech support people that 333Mhz quads don't always do much over 400, some won't do 400, and so forth. He had pretty clear sounding albeit crudish odds ratios, and seemed to be implying that that was something inherent with 45nm quads that makes them not always tolerant of going over 400. Anyway, that is his experience. >I think most of your hold is in voltage. NB will probably need>to come up to at least 1.45-1.47. With 1800 it would need to>come up to 1.55 which is the max I would run on that chipset>without a fan on the heatpipe over the NB.>>If I remember correctly the x38 has a PONR of 80-85c on the NB>and I would keep it below 62c just to maintain a cush. Mine is an x48 board. What is a PONR?>Try the following>>First, just to get things set.. put the memory back to 7-7-7>>Processor temp stays 75c and under with a full load test. I>use OCCT for that. >>CPU PLL 1.55v ( safe range is 1.5 to 1.6 MAX for 45nm CPU)>>FSB TERM (VTT) 1.28v>>NB (experiment) 1.45-1.55v.. I would say this should be good>between 1.45 to 1.52 which are safeThis is easy to follow, so we'll do that.>On NB and CPU GTL Voltage Ref

[Guest Nick_N]

>>399?>>Yes, it loads XP no problem even up at 415 on these settings,>but MemTest fails quickly. At 399, I get no errors on>MemTest. I usually run at 398 just to give it a little room.Make sure you are using the latest version of MemTest and be aware, disable USB Legacy support in the BIOS before running MemTest with Asus motherboards. Its known for causing false errors to appear. Also, GTL trimming is sometimes needed however in your case I suspect timing, low NB or other voltage and DRAM STATIC enabled more than anything else.>>You should not have any problem hitting 400 and even 450 on>>that board (with the right 1800 memory). >>As noted below, I have 1600 memory.Yes, and that memory will do 1800 as well as 1600. Look on the Mushkin site for the Rampage Extreme in which they use the same sticks you are running.But DO be aware, Mushkin is WRONG about the GTL vREF setting because the Rampage Extreme does not use a multiplier to calibrate that input. The person who posted the list used a multiplier to set CPU GTL vREF millivolts instead of the correct process/math here:It

[Noel 4,563]

>>>399?>>>>Yes, it loads XP no problem even up at 415 on these>settings,>>but MemTest fails quickly. At 399, I get no errors on>>MemTest. I usually run at 398 just to give it a little>room.>>>>>Make sure you are using the latest version of MemTest and be>aware, disable USB Legacy support in the BIOS before running>MemTest with Asus motherboards. Its known for causing false>errors to appear. Also, GTL trimming is sometimes needed>however in your case I suspect timing, low NB or other voltage>and DRAM STATIC enabled more than anything else.>>>>>>>>You should not have any problem hitting 400 and even 450 on>>>that board (with the right 1800 memory). >>>>As noted below, I have 1600 memory.>>>>>>Yes, and that memory will do 1800 as well as 1600. Look on the>Mushkin site for the Rampage Extreme in which they use the>same sticks you are running.>>But DO be aware, Mushkin is WRONG about the GTL vREF setting>because the Rampage Extreme does not use a multiplier to>calibrate that input. The person who posted the list used a>multiplier to set CPU GTL vREF millivolts instead of the>correct process/math here:>>It

[Noel 4,563]

>In order to run 1800 the CPU/NB GTL Vref must be trimmed and>on that board it may even require a bit of CPU/NB skew or DDR>skew>>For tech information about GTL and how higher frequencies with>quads may need a bit of trimming, read here >>>http://edgeofstability.com/articles/dfi_p35/gtl/gtl1.htmlThis is too much for me! I need a simple way to follow this else I just won't be doing it! I think I have GTL on AUTO.Is there a way to print the BIOS settings so I can display them here? Any software that will display all the memory settings accurately? I know MemSet shows some, but not all of my BIOS settings.I have followed some of Greg's comments on mushkin site, and managed to get 405 FSB without errors, mainly by setting the strap to 333 as far as I can tell. I'm seeing latency in everest in the high 46's to low 47's now. I have NB at 1.47 I think. FSB term is only at 122 if I remember. I'm sure there is more headroom in this if I had the technical know how of Nick N, but it's really too much for me to work on right now. Plus the article title says it all! "Edgeofstability"!!I had been using an older MemTest. I have 3.8 downloaded and will see if that makes a diff.Correction: Greg posted some timings (below) that were responsible, along with changing the strap to 333, but then again I changed to 400 (instead of AUTO where it has been all along), that is allowing me to hit 405 without memtest errors. BTW, I see no diff between v3.6 and 3.8 Memtest for errors on my board. I guess 3.8 is the latest version. I am actually at RAS# to CAS# of 6 instead of 7, and again, am stable at 405 now.From Greg at Mushkin:CAS# Latency: 7RAS# to CAS# Delay: 7RAS# PRE Time: 6RAS# ACT Time: 18RAS# to RAS# Delay: 6REF Cycle Time: 88WRITE Recovery Time: 8READ to PRE Time: 6READ to WRITE Delay(S/D): 10WRITE to READ Delay(S): 5WRITE to READ Delay(D): 6READ to READ(S): 5READ to READ(D): 7WRITE to WRITE(S): 5WRITE to WRITE(D): 7WRITE to PRE Delay: 21READ to PRE Delay: 8PRE to PRE Delay: 1ALL PRE to ACT Delay: 10ALL PRE to REF Delay: 10DRAM Static Read Control: DisabledDRAM Dynamic Write Control: DisabledAi Clock Twister: Lighter/LighestAi Transaction Booster: AutoCommand Rate: 2N (1N later)DDR3 Voltage: 1.85-1.9vNB Voltage: Try upto 1.6v , from where needed for 4.4Ghz.Then , try NB to FSB straps of both 333 and 266 , additional fsb speed may be needed to reach 1600Mhz then 400 in bios, to reach 1600Mhz ram using these.If your unstable, try ram at below 1500Mhz testing again, to rule out a nb / fsb / cpu issue , so we can get that fixed first, then get 1600Mhz ram working.

[Guest Nick_N]

Im heading out for the day Noel. I will take a look at this when I get backThe link I posted was not about showing you how to set GTL on your board and yes I know it was a bit technical.. I dont know your range of knowledge in the subject of electronics and simply provided a link to a good write-up about the problems with Quads and 2x2GB+ at higher frequencies, thats all. Edge of Stabilty is a good name for itI see the transaction booster is on AUTO. I do think that should be either disabled or defined as 07 till all else is figured out and stable. Then work it back down and I do think the sticks should be run at their designed timming.So you are stable and everything checks at 405 with what you posted and on the 400 STRAP?You should be over 1600 then @ 405MHz When it comes right down to it I am not sure what you are after at 410-415MHz. If you have to sacrifice tRD and 1T to get to 410-415, I dont see that as being worth the lossI would run 7-7-7 @ tRD6 and 1T before I would bump FSB to 410-415 and lose tRD or CMDThis is not DDR2 where that last 10-15Mhz can make a differenceI would go with a VTT (FSB Term) of 1.28 and a NB of 1.47-1.52 on the manually set 400 STRAPwill look at this when I get back

[Noel 4,563]

>I see the transaction booster is on AUTO. I do think that>should be either disabled or defined as 07 till all else is>figured out and stable. Then work it back down and I do think>the sticks should be run at their designed timming.>So you are stable and everything checks at 405 with what you>posted and on the 400 STRAP?>>You should be over 1600 then @ 405MHz My mistake, but it is not the case. I forgot, I had changed Greg's clock twister setting to AUTO, not Lightest, plus I have Performance Level at 6, not 7.. The 333 strap with a 408 FSB is totally error free and it's great! >When it comes right down to it I am not sure what you are>after at 410-415MHz. If you have to sacrifice tRD and 1T to>get to 410-415, I dont see that as being worth the loss>>I would run 7-7-7 @ tRD6 and 1T before I would bump FSB to>410-415 and lose tRD or CMDI'm actually running 7-6-6 at tRD6 & 1T at FSB 408, strap 333 (haven't tried higher FSB) with no Memtest errors.I must say, FSX is running best ever, or so it seems--you know how that can be. But for an example, I took two flights this AM in CoolSky's MD80 Pro, with all the addons in ASX, almost maxed out in every FSX parameter (cept traffic, etc), and landing at 09 at KSAN just after sun up, clouds out to 110 miles, and landed the thing at 24 frames (I mention frames only because without minimum frames it's a problem too ;o))WITH BLOOM ON, super smooth, super clear textures. It was running "very good" before, now it's very better!Have you flown their MD80? It's really a nice compromise to get the full commercial aircraft feel & FMS, but superb performance in FSX. Haven't tried PMDG stuff yet, but this one's a keeper and occasionally (only in dense clouds) will I have to shut off BLOOM coming into a big terminal. Dang I wish someone would make a bloomin' (hehe) utility that let's you keypress to toggle BLOOM on/off the fly. Since textures DON't need to reinitialize I don't see why it couldn't be done.>This is not DDR2 where that last 10-15Mhz can make a>difference>>I would go with a VTT (FSB Term) of 1.28 and a NB of 1.47-1.52>on the manually set 400 STRAPNick I tried 410 with a 400 STRAP, and she froze on me, but then again I had FSB Term only at 122 I think, NB 1.47. My mem's set at 1.90v now. I have Everest latency now at 46.7--comin down! I'm sure there's more room, but as I have said, stability/durability is important to me.Nick, is there an advantage to 400 strap over 333 per se?QX9650 w/ Retail HSF|ASUS P5E3 Premium WiFi|4GB Muskin Ascent 7-6-6-18 1T DDR3-1600|EVGA 8800GT|Seagate SATA 2 x 2|Seagate Cheetah 15K.x|XP Pro SP2|Vista 64--maybe never to be installed