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deltafan

INS Alignment

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OK, after turning on the APU and switching over the power selectors, I started the INS alignment process. I switched it to STBY, tested it as the CIVA manual says, and entered my position. Then I switched it to ALIGN. The API DOES NOT decrease from 9 as it should. What is the problem?

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>OK, after turning on the APU and switching over the power>selectors, I started the INS alignment process. I switched it>to STBY, tested it as the CIVA manual says, and entered my>position. Then I switched it to ALIGN. The API DOES NOT>decrease from 9 as it should. What is the problem?Engines are shut down? Also don't move the aircraft during alignment.

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Hi Ron.The alignment takes some time if you leave the INS running in real time. However you can speed up the alignment process so that it produces a green light in a couple of minutes, by clicking the concealed button disguised as the top-right-hand screw mounting on the panel with the 'align' control on it.;)

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Did you press the INSERT button after entering the longitude before you went to ALIGN?A step by step key entry walkthrough of what you're doing will help narrow down the problem. Please list the exact steps you're doing with the INS before going to align.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpg

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OK, deleted the .ISD file for the 737 and it aligned. Problem now is that it keeps giving me an Action Code 4 when I try to align it. Then I realign it like the manual says and it still gives me code 4. It's being very odd.

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Hello,first of all - the big and warm thanks for this "deliciouse" B737-200.I haven't got any problems with alignment process, with navigation,with updating position on VOR/DME stations as well. Just one little issue : during whole flight I notticed yellow button BAT lights on and after ca. 45 minuts flight my CIVA shut off.Very strange, I'm using CIVA gauge in RFP742, DF727 for many years without this problem. What's up?Best regardsGwidonPS. Sorry for my poor english, hopeful understandable ;-)

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Gwidon,Before you load the Tinmouse panel, start the flight with the default Cessna and shut down the engines. Let the battery and the avionics running. If you follow this procedure, the INS should work.

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Thank you Daniel for your quick respond. You are most likely right. Although I allways start FS session with default cessna but only with acitived avionics switch not battery switch (you know cold&dark opition is the most interesting). I have to write your advice on my monitors display with capital letters ;-)))CheersGwidon

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>(you know cold&dark opition is the most interesting). Yes, I agree, but you can still shut-off the systems in the 737 panel after loading it ;) . That's what I do.Regards,Daniel

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Daniel ,let me do what to do ;-)))All are working great now. Thanks again Daniel.737 by TinMouse Project is really cool. Old bird for oldtimer like me ;-)CheersGwidon

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1. I load the panel.2. MSU Mode Selector set to STBY3. CDU Data Selector set to DSRTK/STS4. INS Right Display reads 0---955. HOLD Switch On-Confirm Left display reads 11 176. HOLD Switch Off7. Test Switch Push/Hold- All digits indiciate 8, all lights on8. Test Switch Auto9. CDU Selector POS10. Insert Lat Position, press Insert, Insert Lon Position, press InsertI round degrees UP to the nearest 1/10. So N61* 40.55 reads N61 40.6 on INS11. MSU Mode set to ALIGN/CDU Selector to DSRTK/STS12. Watch API come down, BAT light illuminated at 8, extinguished at 7. Because I had a lot of time, I waited for API to reach 0 instead of 5. (Aircraft remained MOTIONLESS and engines off)13. While waiting for Alignment, I entered Waypoints, 0 being current ramp postition identical to the reading in POS mode.14. Remote Switch Push, enter waypoints15. Remote Switch Off, check waypoint accuracy16. Before Pushback, MSU mode to NAVFinished procedure. At first, their is nothing displayed in the Action Code spot. Then after taxiing begins, Action code appears and API starts to increase from 0-1-2-3-4-etc.

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Hi Ron,Just a couple comments and questions.>11. MSU Mode set to ALIGN/CDU Selector to DSRTK/STS>12. Watch API come down, BAT light illuminated at 8, extinguished at >7. Because I had a lot of time, I waited for API to reach 0 instead >of 5. (Aircraft remained MOTIONLESS and engines off)You can speed up the alignment by clicking on the hidden quick align click spot. It's the upper right mounting screw on the MSU.>13. While waiting for Alignment, I entered Waypoints, 0 being current >ramp postition identical to the reading in POS mode.Don't enter waypoint 0. As soon as the API decreases to 5 during alignment waypoint 0 is automatically set to your POS entered for alignment. This could be an area of trouble.>14. Remote Switch Push, enter waypoints>15. Remote Switch Off, check waypoint accuracyNo need to use the Remote switch for single INS use. It's only required if you have dual or triple INS.>16. Before Pushback, MSU mode to NAVMake sure the MSU is set to NAV before engine start as well. Sometimes people will do an engine start before pushback. I don't know if this is your case.How are you tranfering power at start-up? In the 737-200 you have to sellect a power source as it doesn't have auto power switching. If you are on the APU gen during the start you have to physically move the engine GEN switches to ON to have them power the buses. Are you doing this?Are you also starting with the default Cessna making sure the battery and avionics switches are on before loading the 737-200?Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpg

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On my flights, I pushback, then engine start. So my MSU was switched over before both pushback and engine start.On start up, after I start the engines, I do switch over the power from APU to the engines by the GEN switch.I am not loading the default Cessna first. I'll try that though.

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John,I am completely in the dark concerning this message thread. You seem to be knowledgable concerning this equipment, so please explain some things to me. I think INS is "Inertial Navigation System". Please explain the other abreviations and try to educate me concerning this system.Thanks in advance,

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Yes, the INS is "Internal Navigation System." For the rest of the abbreviations, check the first part of the CIVA-INS manual in the Flight Simulator 9/Civa/docs folder.

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>Yes, the INS is "Internal Navigation System." For the rest of>the abbreviations, check the first part of the CIVA-INS manual>in the Flight Simulator 9/Civa/docs folder.It's actually "Inertial Navigation System". ;)

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Good afternoon,0 refers to position only.13. Enter your ramp position selecting waypoint on the CDU and 1 on the waypoint selector.Enter your first in route waypoint as 2 and so one.13 bis. Check for accuracy selecting dis/time track change 1-2-3-4....The distances should comply with your flight plan. Don't forget to clear the track change.13ter. Do not insert sid or star. It's a waste of time.Depart and arrive using VOR and NDB.Best regards.

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>

>>Good afternoon,>>0 refers to position only.>>13. Enter your ramp position selecting waypoint on the CDU and>1 on the waypoint selector.>Enter your first in route waypoint as 2 and so one.>>13 bis. Check for accuracy selecting dis/time track change>1-2-3-4....>The distances should comply with your flight plan. >Don't forget to clear the track change.>>13ter. Do not insert sid or star. It's a waste of time.>Depart and arrive using VOR and NDB.>>Best regards.Entering your ramp position as waypoint 1 is only to check for accuracy after alignment. You should then enter your first flight plan waypoint starting at waypoint 1 as waypoint 0 IS your ramp position and the INS starts to auto advance from waypoint 0-1. It's explained in the CIVA INS OperationsManual.pdf on page 9.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpg

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Good afternoon,a) Nothing in the doc, as I read it, desagrees with my previous post.As a matter of fact, on departure, ramp position remained waypoint 1 for two raisons:1) No need to delete it.2) Might have been useful in case of an emergency.Keep in mind INS did appear on the late sixties.b)Before linking th INS to the FD/PA:1)Upon cleared in route by the ATC make a waypoint change (0-2 for example) 2)Check the distance to go and the turn angle.3) If everything is correct, activate the INS.4) In case of a wide angle of turn, make a second track change (0-2 in our example) near the end of the turn to avoid overshooting.Best regards

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If that works for you, that's great but it is a wrong procedure. I will add that in real world operations of the INS or a GPS system for that fact the precedures are as I noted (see my signatue).Now the documentation says:*******************************It is recommended, at the first insertion on ground, to reinsert the ramp position as waypoint 1 to verify the DISTANCE from present position (waypoint 0) and waypoint 1 is 0.If the ramp position has been reinserted as waypoint 1, check the distance from ramp position and the waypoint 1 which must be 0. Otherwise the distance shown must be consistent with the flight plan's waypoint 0-1 distance.*******************************The first paragraph "recommends" a ramp accuracy check by loading ramp position in waypoint 1 and to verify the distance is 0 from waypoint 0-1. Paragraph 2 states the same in the first sentence but also states that the distance from waypoint 0-1 MUST be consistent with the flight plan. The ONLY reason to insert your ramp position in Waypoint 1 is to confirm your alignment. If the distance is not 0 then you've either entered a wrong Lat/Long for alignment or the wrong ramp position.You are complicating a very simple procedure by entering the ramp pos as waypoint 1 and doing a 0-2 switch in flight. That's not how the system was designed to work and the chances of it being usefull in the terminal area in an emergency are doubtfull. Waypoint 1 should be the first enroute leg of your flight plan.If you still feel I am wrong, that's OK but take the above into account and try it sometime.EDIT: This INS thread is getting long and way beyond what Tinmouse has released. They released the panel with the feature of being able to use the CIVA INS along with it. The CIVA INS is not their product and expecting them to support it, in my opinion, is wrong. The INS is a very bullet proof program and most issues are caused either by lack of reading the manuals or a corrupt installation.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpg

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Good afternoon,Never mind.Obviously, you know better.I just don't understand how I could be wrong for so many years and manage to survive.Best regards.

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Like I said, if it works for you, that's great but as a licensed mechanic who has used/maintained INS equipment and in contact with the developers of the CIVA for our Concorde, please don't dis me with a 'never mind'. After 24 years in the business I've learned a few things along the way about aircraft and one of those is to listen to someone with experience! It's up to you whether you want to take it or leave it but if you leave it don't patronize me on the forum! Your way works, and that's great for you, but is not as streamlined as it's meant to be. That's all I'm pointing out as to a new INS user it could be confusing.There are numerous wrong ways that can get the INS to do the right thing but it's always better off to learn and start off the right way.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.sstsim.com/images/team/JR.jpg

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