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Guest william273

Real World Heavy Commerical Training

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anyone know about how pilots train for commerical airlines? what i want to know about is what goes on as far as landing practice. like how much time or how many flights do they practice for manual and auto-pilot landings. how about wind training...like crosswind, headwind and tailwind landings and plain old boring no wind good weather landings? how much time is spent in their hi-dollar commerical simulators. i know probably most is done in the simulator but how much time is spent in the real aircraft?oh yea don't forget low visibility landings. william

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My father fly's the real 744F in Asia. I dont get a chance to speak to him much in person as I'm based in London but I think he has the sim every six months. When he transfered from the 340 he had to fly the pax version for a while for some reason.

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wonder how a FO would feel if he had to wear a name tag that said "Trainee". very informative joe, thanks, william

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Long before you get behind the stick of a commercial airliner you already know about all of the things you mentioned through your training from private through commerical ratings. These concepts are not new to you and you will have done plenty of them through the minimum 1500 hours fixed wing PIC + turbine rating you WILL have before you can even apply to an airline.Once you are accepted at an airline you spend the prerequisite time in the Level D simulators for the aircraft you are being slated for. You will be trained in regular line flying, emergencies, and everything thing else you will encounter out on the line. IN short all of your time in spent in the sim until you are checkout and deemed ready to go outside.Only when you are passed in the simulator by a checkairman are you eligible for you IOE (Initial Operating Experience) flights. You will fly with a check captain or training captain in your rated aircraft out in the real world and once you receive your needed hours as PIC of that aircraft you will get your type rating (assuming that you are checked out)Only once you receive your ticket are you released into the wild as a newly minted first officer. HTH,Mike T.

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>Theseconcepts are not new to you and you will have done plenty of>them through the minimum 1500 hours fixed wing PIC + turbine>rating you WILL have before you can even apply to an airline.Not true. In the US, there have been regional airlines that have been hiring with only a commercial certificate. Granted, there have only been 2 airlines that have done that (Piedmont, which is no longer doing it and ASA..which is). Most airlines are hiring around 500 TT / 50 ME with no turbine PIC required.

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hi mike, that makes sense and i should have known that. actually after i posted this thread it dawned on me that they probably worked their way up and learned all this on the way. thanks, william

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i have a JAR CPL, and i had 230 hours total time when i got hired by our national carrier on the Avro RJ85/100 .. training was one month of groundschool to get to know the aircraft and operations, then 10 4-hour sessions in the simulator followed by a 4 hour sim-check and a 4-hour low visibility training session .. so that makes 48 hours simulator .. next was 6 touch and goes with the real aircraft, and then linetraining started with pax on board ..every six months we have 2 4-hour sessions in the sim, which include different emergencies, LO-VIS qualification (to maintain our personal CAT 3 status) and counts as a check to maintain the typeratingThe low visibility training includes LO-VIS take-offs (on the avro we are qualified for t/o with an RVR of at least 125m), we train the take-off and engine failures before and after V1, which can be challenging in lo-vis) .. for landings we train on the cat II and III minima, and with different failures which depending on the type of failure result in go-around or landing .. during initial training in the sim we trained up to x-winds of about 20 to 25 knots (the avro is limited to 35 knots x-wind) .. all the rest is done during actual line flying ..every flight and every landing is different, so even the most experienced pilot learns every day .. those who claim they don't are idiots :-)

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now THAT'S the stuff i want to hear about. i'm sure those lo-vis failure landing were something else. so what sort of manuals or whatever are you studing before you practice the simulator? thanks, william

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Yes true, I assume he is talking about majors and not regionals since the title of his post is "Real World Heavy Commercial Training". Last time I checked regional airlines don't fly heavies so pointing out regional hiring practices would be irrelevent.Regionals are hiring out of ab initio training with less than 500 hours but that is to fly aircraft UP TO ERJ and CRJ class aircraft, which are actually easier to fly than turboprobs (which are being phased out at most larger regional carriers anyway). Which major carrier do you know is hiring jet pilots with 500 hours with no turbine and no PIC? I'm not speaking from speculation, I'm speaking from experience and I tell you that your resume' will get thrown in the garbage if you submit it to a major with 500 TT and no turbine PIC. Regards,Mike T.

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Like LeFreak, I was hired straight out of Flight School onto the A319/20/21. Our low vis departures are 75m vis and full Cat IIIb no decision height autolands (the wonderjet is very clever :-)). Everything he said was spot on. Some of the guys on our course had previous turboprop experience so they didn't have to do base training (real aircraft, no pax, I did 8 touch and go's).With regards to what to read before the sim check, we read the manuals. Tech, abnormals, QRH, SOP's. Reminding yourself of the correct procedures (including mouth music) for the different types of emergency's, along with more general thoughts on how to drive the flight along.I've written a small (3 or 4 pages at the moment) Word document to remind me of the sort of thing we have to do (some of it is always the same due licensing requirements). Every time I bugger something up I write in the document so I don't make the same mistake twice. Every time I receive some kind of little gem of information/tip whatever from anyone, that goes in here too.Things are very different the other side of the pond, same result though, just a different method.Hope this helps,Ian

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>Even newly promoted Captains>have higher minimums for a specific period of time during>their initial trips than a regular Captain. Not true at my airline, when you get the stamp saying "Route Check Passed" as a Captain, you hold all the responsibility's of a Captain, if you weren't ready for them, they wouldn't have passed your route check.If the Captain can't fly/operate the aircraft to it's limits, who can?Hope this helps,Ian

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well, by heavy yea i meant heavy but what i was looking for was what the regional guys were saying even though there is a difference between the two. even though the CRJ and Embraer are in a different class i include them too. i just wanted to find out about how and what these guys practice in the sim and things like that. since i probably won't be getting in one but i'd kind of like to hear about what all is involved. william

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>Yes true, I assume he is talking about majors and not>regionals since the title of his post is "Real World Heavy>Commercial Training". Last time I checked regional airlines>don't fly heavies so pointing out regional hiring practices>would be irrelevent.>>Regionals are hiring out of ab initio training with less than>500 hours but that is to fly aircraft UP TO ERJ and CRJ class>aircraft, which are actually easier to fly than turboprobs>(which are being phased out at most larger regional carriers>anyway). Which major carrier do you know is hiring jet pilots>with 500 hours with no turbine and no PIC? >>I'm not speaking from speculation, I'm speaking from>experience and I tell you that your resume' will get thrown in>the garbage if you submit it to a major with 500 TT and no>turbine PIC. >>Regards,>>Mike T.Well, my airline is a national carrier with a fleet of Avro RJ's, Boeing 737, Airbus A319 and Airbus A330 .. not exactly what I would call a regional carrier .. to give you a hint it used to be called Sabena .. on the avro we perfom medium-haul operations with flights up to 3 hours .. Saying that regional jets are easier to fly than turboprops is absolute bulls**t .. every plane has its own characteristics and difficulties .. and i'm pretty #### sure if you train for a fokker 50 or a boeing 747, procedures will be similar to what I described .. (and yes i know people flying on the Fokker 50 and the B747) .. I cannot understand why you americans always make the difference between the regionals and the majors .. both types of companies employ pilots .. we are all airline pilots, no matter if you fly a CRJ or the A380 .. maybe you guys should convert to JAA standards ..i have friends flying the B757 and A300 straight from ab initio, major carriers like British Airways and KLM/Air France hire ab initios .. Safety standards in Europe are very high, and i think we can say that our training and safety records has proven that it works ..

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LeFreak when you fly a manual landing at what point during the approach/landing do you come off the autopilot and begin hand flying? william

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it depends .. sometimes i disconnect and handfly from above fl100, and sometimes i disconnect as soon as the rwy is in sight .. only times we do an autoland is in cat 3 conditions or for certification purposes, otherwise we always manualy land .. for departures i always handfly up to FL100, and depending on the departure i sometimes fly as high as top of climb manualy (which on the avro the highest can be FL350) .. flying is too much fun do let the autopilot do all the work, and in our company we are blessed that we are still allowed to fly manualy as much as we want .. it certainly helps keeping your flying skills up to level ..Jan

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i was kind of under the impression that alot of airlines prefer the pilots using the autopilot because it's smoother for the passengers or something along those lines. i wouldn't care to much for the auto-land myself. i'm just talking approach/landing here not enroute. so it varies from airline to airline then? i just edited this so i don't know if it will post twice or not. thanks, william

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It depends from airline to airline. Most airlines (especially in the US) have a cooperation with one or more flight schools and/or regional carriers, some have a 100% in-house training (mostly European carriers).Usually you start with a PPL, then get your IFR and multi-engine rating and then either work for a dime and a half on charter flights, then after you get a turbine rating you train on one specific airplane and log anywhere from 1500 to 3000 hours with the small regional carrier... and then you might be lucky to get hired as a FO by a major airline.I started my (very brief) career with Lufthansa and all my training was in-house (in huge education centers in Bremen, Hamburg and Frankfurt) and it did not require any previous flight experience or knowledge. About 20 candidates a year were selected from about 600 applications and were put through an excellent training program (for pretty much free, LH paid for the training). I was one of them, but got unlucky, because after the training just about 50% of the candidates were hired and got further training for their type rating and the rest (incl. me) was placed on a waiting list to hire. Decided that it wasn't for me and changed careers and now carry virtual passengers ;)As far as landings: I cannot count the landings anymore, but it must have been anywhere from a few hundred to thousands, both in the simulator and in real-life under all circumstances (visual, CAT I-III) and emergencies (engine out, gear stuck, no flaps, no speedbrakes, no radio). The ratio of simulator time to real flight time was about 80% simulator and 20% real life, but I don't know, if that's true for the type ratings as well, as I never had a chance to complete it.Pat

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wow, the waiting list was a real let down for sure...sorry to hear about that but i'm sure the fs passengers are happy you're their PIC. roger the schools, i wasn't sure how all that was setup i guess it varies too. that's interesting. 20 out of 600? if i knew that before starting i probably won't even bother and just fly for FS instead. those sim rides sound intense. so if you can remember your first few sim experiences in a jet, in what kind of order did they start you like as far as easy to difficult? something like a clear weather landing to get to know the aircraft then slowly add weather/wind conditions? i'm not talking all at once but over a period of sim rides. thanks alot pat, william

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Well, I found out that you have to be really, really, really into flying for a major carrier, which involves pretty much dedicating most of your time to aviation, meaning long hours away from home and irregular holidays and time off. Of course, you'll get time off and the job pays very well, but I think it might be sometimes hard to juggle the timetables around with family and virtually eliminates the ability to be spontaneous.A very, very good read are posts of real life pilots on airliners.net. Some guy from Southwest wrote a really detailed blog of all the ups and downs of flying for a major carrier. Search for "Pilot Report" in the "Trips" forum.Good luck,Pat

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haven't been there in awhile so i'll check it out. thanks for the heads up. william

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during my integrated ATPL training, (that is a training from 0 hours to JAR Commercial Pilot License with Multi Engine and IFR Rating, and the theoretical ATPL exams), all training was done on single engine piston aircraft, with the last part done on a multi-engine piston aircraft (in my case the Diamond DA42 Twin Star) .. JAA rules say that to get a typerating on a multi-pilot aircraft, an MCC course needs to be done ..i did my MCC course on the 737-200 simulator and that was my first jet experience .. the course is a week of groundschool covering mostly CRM, but also briefly the systems and operating procedures .. than it's 5 4-hour sessions in the sim .. you start with basic flying and progressively engine failures and other malfunctions are introduced .. never ever did we fly in no wind conditions ..then for the typerating it went as i explained before, and again we never flew in no wind conditions .. the weather/wind is not the thing to learn, you do that during initial flying training .. you focus on the systems and failures .. on the typerating, first 2 sessions are basic flying and standard ILS approaches .. than gradually engine failures, non-precision approaches, emergencies and combinations of these things are introduced, where at one stage i had to land the plane with 2 engines out (we still have 2 left :-)), a 3 ton fuel imbalance and heavy crosswind on a VOR-DME approach .. add to that engine fire on #3 and you're in for quiet some workload ..

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