Crosswind landings in FS2004 and realism

[Guest manos]

Hi everybody,Having tried many crosswind-landing techniques and knowing the theory about them (crab-angle approaches, wing-low method etc.) and having watched real-life videos as well, I wonder how realstically FS9 can allow us to fly such approaches. What I have noticed is that even though one may approach in a crab angle the runway with the aircraft path-over-ground perfectly aligned with the RWY centerline, once the FS pilot applies opposite rudder prior to touching-down to align the aircraft NOSE with the centerline, the aircraft drifts UPWIND!!! (INTO the crosswind component!!!) even before any upwind aileron is applied! Eventually the aircraft, ofcourse, will start drifting downwind as expected, but by then a perfect approach is ruined!. And this initial drifting of the aircrafts off the centerline upwind, seems to happen with every aircraft, even those ones claiming to feature accurate FDEs!. So could this be a defect of the wind-simulating code of FS9 itself? what do you think?Thank you

[n77737 14]

This responce to the rudder in crosswind landings has bugged my since I started using FS. I have no problems with crosswind landings in real life, using either a slip or crab, but FS can be a real pain to get the landing to work out. In real life I don't even think about the wind. After deciding that the crosswind is doable I ignore it and just fly the airplane. Never have a problem. In FS......well that's a different story.Dave

[netshadoe 144]

The yaw control in MSFS isn't all that realistic compared to flying a real aircraft...it doesn't simulate the positive control a real rudder gives you. There are a few maneuvers that can't be done due to crappy rudder simulation. You mentioned crosswinds...try a spin, a knife edge, a hammerhead, etc. None of those work well in MSFS. The only one I've done in real life other than crosswinds are spins because it is a part of the training here in Canada. You can't spin the 172 in FS9...or should I say, you have to "fudge" it!!One day they will worry about the simulation of flight at Microsoft and stop worrying about eye candy. I could care less about finding elephants, giraffes, birds and crap like that they thought was more important in FSX when the flight simulation model has a lot to be desired. I don't know about you, but I'd rather simulate how an aircraft actually flies through the atmosphere (interaction with temperature, pressure, winds, fronts, precipitation, thermals, etc...) than what it flies over!!Devin

[Guest UKPilot]

The yaw control in MSFS isn't all that realistic compared to flying a real aircraft...it doesn't simulate the positive control a real rudder gives you. There are a few maneuvers that can't be done due to crappy rudder simulation. You mentioned crosswinds...try a spin, a knife edge, a hammerhead, etc. None of those work well in MSFS. The only one I've done in real life other than crosswinds are spins because it is a part of the training here in Canada. You can't spin the 172 in FS9...or should I say, you have to "fudge" it!!One day they will worry about the simulation of flight at Microsoft and stop worrying about eye candy. I could care less about finding elephants, giraffes, birds and crap like that they thought was more important in FSX when the flight simulation model has a lot to be desired. I don't know about you, but I'd rather simulate how an aircraft actually flies through the atmosphere (interaction with temperature, pressure, winds, fronts, precipitation, thermals, etc...) than what it flies over!!Devin

Here! Here!

[out 769]

One day they will worry about the simulation of flight at Microsoft and stop worrying about eye candy. I could care less about finding elephants, giraffes, birds and crap like that they thought was more important in FSX when the flight simulation model has a lot to be desired. I don't know about you, but I'd rather simulate how an aircraft actually flies through the atmosphere (interaction with temperature, pressure, winds, fronts, precipitation, thermals, etc...) than what it flies over!!

A very well explained feelings of many of us, your fellow simmers! :( For the mentioned reasons my copy of the latest Microsoft Finelook Simulator (FSX) is getting dust on the shelf.With no offence to its users, of course.And regardless of the MFS/XPlane question we must remember a PC based simulator will never be a full feature simulator.There will always be a part of compromised game&fun for us nevergrownup old farts.Best regards,Rafal

[LAdamson 240]

The yaw control in MSFS isn't all that realistic compared to flying a real aircraft...it doesn't simulate the positive control a real rudder gives you. There are a few maneuvers that can't be done due to crappy rudder simulation. You mentioned crosswinds...try a spin, a knife edge, a hammerhead, etc. None of those work well in MSFS. The only one I've done in real life other than crosswinds are spins because it is a part of the training here in Canada. You can't spin the 172 in FS9...or should I say, you have to "fudge" it!!One day they will worry about the simulation of flight at Microsoft and stop worrying about eye candy. I could care less about finding elephants, giraffes, birds and crap like that they thought was more important in FSX when the flight simulation model has a lot to be desired. I don't know about you, but I'd rather simulate how an aircraft actually flies through the atmosphere (interaction with temperature, pressure, winds, fronts, precipitation, thermals, etc...) than what it flies over!!Devin

Anybody heard of RealAir Simulations??? They've specialized in "rudder control for years"! You can do spins and hammerheads too! Try the FS9 RealAir Marchetti SF260 or the FSX version. These are the BEST rudder planes you'll find for any sim! Slips in the SF260 are excellent!And BTW ----- I actually like FSX for the way it portrays the sense of flight through air. IMO it's one of the better ones....L.Adamson ---- FS9/FSX, X-Plane 8/9, airplane owner (Van's RV6A), hangar renter, buyer of 100LL, and all that

[LAdamson 240]

I don't know about you, but I'd rather simulate how an aircraft actually flies through the atmosphere (interaction with temperature, pressure, winds, fronts, precipitation, thermals, etc...) than what it flies over!!

Since you asked...........The reason I've spent so dang much money on real planes over the years.............. Is to see what it fly's over...., from a much better view than a high flying airliner. Out here in the mountain west, we have thousands of square miles of fantastic scenery; and a great reason to go flying,Yes, the sense of real flight, and resonable reactions to controls are very important within a sim. But don't dismiss "eye candy". The closer it gets to real life, then the more interest I have in the simulation.L.Adamson

[MarkRey 16]

Devin and LAdamson both make excellent points imho, but I see no reason that ACES can't do both, it's not like it's a small team working on all aspects of the sim sequentially - is it?

[netshadoe 144]

Yes, the sense of real flight, and resonable reactions to controls are very important within a sim. But don't dismiss "eye candy". The closer it gets to real life, then the more interest I have in the simulation.L.Adamson

Point taken...you are absolutely correct. I am a low and slow flier 95 percent of the time with a few dabbles in the big iron! I didn't dismiss the fact that sceneries are nice, especially for VFR flying. I kinda got wrapped up in the question on why MSFS developers spent needless hours developing giraffes, elephants, birds, boats, cars and other FPS killing objects when the flight / atmospheric / ATC models need a lot of updating and/or fixing. I don't mind AI aircraft...that is the environment we are simulating. But I can say that when I'm out flying, enjoying the scenery, I for one don't look at cars from the air, nor have I seen many animals (I have, but its rare). MS should focus on simulating the world of flight which includes scenery, but not the animal kingdom!! :( Once the flight simulator is more representative to real world flying, and we all own CRAY computers, then they can start adding animals, bugs, UFO's or anything else they desire!! :( Hey Manos!!! How about that for your first post...you created a great discussion!! :(Devin

[january 19]

Hi everybody,Having tried many crosswind-landing techniques and knowing the theory about them (crab-angle approaches, wing-low method etc.) and having watched real-life videos as well, I wonder how realstically FS9 can allow us to fly such approaches. What I have noticed is that even though one may approach in a crab angle the runway with the aircraft path-over-ground perfectly aligned with the RWY centerline, once the FS pilot applies opposite rudder prior to touching-down to align the aircraft NOSE with the centerline, the aircraft drifts UPWIND!!! (INTO the crosswind component!!!) even before any upwind aileron is applied! Eventually the aircraft, ofcourse, will start drifting downwind as expected, but by then a perfect approach is ruined!. And this initial drifting of the aircrafts off the centerline upwind, seems to happen with every aircraft, even those ones claiming to feature accurate FDEs!. So could this be a defect of the wind-simulating code of FS9 itself? what do you think?Thank you

-----------manos- one of the great limiting factors of FS is the lack of peripheral vision with only a single 45

[Guest manos]

I'm glad that real-life pilots responded to the post.Sure enough Alex, peripheral vision does play a role but I assure you I have tried multiple monitors, zooming out etc. The defect seems to be innate to the FS flight modeling. Besides, in X-plane ever since it was out (back in 1997 or so - The version now called "classic" and which version I believe was the most realistic flight modeling ever to appear for the PC) I could perform perfect crosswind landings either crabs or slips, much in the same way real life pilots describe them. There was no wrong drift upwind, and I had to counteract the wind effect indeed with upwind aileron.Still, FS is superb in terms of scenery realism as well as add-ons abundance and it is not at all an easy decision to give it up.So now that I know for sure from real pilots that it's not possible to perform a realistic crosswind slip in the FS I have to make a choice:Either I give up crosswind landings for the shake of realism, or I will touch down in a crab position and THEN I will align the fuselage with the centerline. But I can imagine that in reality this would soon result in damage of the landing gear due to the stress caused by the sideways movement of the wheels, wouldn't it?.Thank you all

[LAdamson 240]

So now that I know for sure from real pilots that it's not possible to perform a realistic crosswind slip in the FS I have to make a choice:Either I give up crosswind landings for the shake of realism, or I will touch down in a crab position and THEN I will align the fuselage with the centerline. But I can imagine that in reality this would soon result in damage of the landing gear due to the stress caused by the sideways movement of the wheels, wouldn't it?.Thank you all

I do believe (as a real pilot) that I mentioned that cross-wond landings are indeed avialable for MSFS. There are a few models out there that specialize in the technique of slips, and do them very well. Therfore, it's not "impossible"...And no, I never touch down in a "crabbed" condition with MSFS. I either kick it straight with rudder, or use a slip technique on the approach.L.Adamson

[Guest manos]

I do believe (as a real pilot) that I mentioned that cross-wond landings are indeed avialable for MSFS. There are a few models out there that specialize in the technique of slips, and do them very well. Therfore, it's not "impossible"...And no, I never touch down in a "crabbed" condition with MSFS. I either kick it straight with rudder, or use a slip technique on the approach.L.AdamsonOk. I too admit that cessna or other general aviation aircrafts with a similar flight model derived from or resembling her exhibit a more realistic behaviour in crosswinds. But do you really know of any add-on Boeing or Airbus or MD, that can be flown and handled realistically in crosswind landings (i.e. ones that can be kept flying by means of rudder and aileron with their fuselage aligned with and remaining over the centerline of the RWY for some time when there is a crosswind component say 10-30 knots)? If so, please be specific and let me know where I can get such models (freeware, payware, anything).Thanks a lotmanos

[january 19]

manos- Good discussion!!In my reply re the importance of peripheral vision in picking up early cues about changes in aircraft attitude, I failed to mention the ability of the pilot to properly respond. That is, to input appropriate rudder changes.Nearly nine years ago, I was the very happy winner of a sim conference draw for the PFC Cirrus rudder pedals. I can assure you that they make a remarkable improvement in how you fly in crosswind conditions. (The "other brand" pedals were quickly removed and given away to another simmer who hadn't yet discovered the fun of crosswind!) Good pedals are invaluable to good flying skills.Another "tweak" which has been a great help was to make a longer throttle arm for my CH yoke. The increase in length of about 3 inches, means that you can input VERY SMALL power changes (essential in tricky landings) which are simply not possible with the short factory throttle.Finally, you mentioned having used multiple views. Were they synchronized so as to "eliminate" the bezels?Without synching, the pilot's eyes continue to see multiple, but separate, view images and as a result, natural focus will remain concentrated on primarily the centre view- thus probably missing early peripheral changes in aircraft yaw or roll.Alex Reid

[Guest manos]

Finally, you mentioned having used multiple views. Were they synchronized so as to "eliminate" the bezels?Without synching, the pilot's eyes continue to see multiple, but separate, view images and as a result, natural focus will remain concentrated on primarily the centre view- thus probably missing early peripheral changes in aircraft yaw or roll.Alex, Some 2 years ago, I set up multiple monitors -3- by using triplehead2go and zooming all the way out. Matrox's digital version wasn't out back then so there was no build-in bezel managment support. To compensate for the bezels I simply used the individual controls of each of the side montitors to shift their image towards the center monitor just enough to get an expanded view with no discontinuities. I also hooked up a 4th monitor independently to the second VGA output to display the panel, GPS etc.By the way, what kind of Multi monitor set up do you have? networked PCs? And if quality rudder pedals make such a big difference as you say what specific brandts do you recommend of the ones available today in the sim market? lastly, you certainly have a point about the throttle-lever length with regard to subtle power changes.