I got your Windows Live right here Microsoft! Go Austin!

[Geofa 108]

Nope you need X-plane for that :(. Especialy in the early 8.6 times. Chase the birds, hit them and crash. Now 9.3 apperently adds moose on the runway. After my experience with birdstrikes there is no way I going to hit those deer.I think part of the problem is that Avsim forum users are FS centric (and there is nothing wrong with that!). We could benefit if the current X-Plane and Flightgear forums get a more prominent place so the FS part of us doesn't get offended when we discus the good points of one sim versus the other.

I think Deer-added-at least what I have seen....Here is a shot on my iphone ( a little hard to see) of me taking off two days ago from kjxn-7-8 deer just off the runway.Here is a shot of xplane taking off the same airport that I tried that night and guess what-deer off the runway-put a big smile on my face!As for birds-bring them on-a problem with practically every one of my flights. I saw a 310 almost crash this summer due to hitting them on flare-sending bodies flying everywhere including near me waiting to takeoff. The US air in the Hudson kinda showed that too-what were the stats? 54,000 bird strikes reported in the last 5 years?But I agree-especially in these times-support for all flight sims is a good route. I have a feeling the forums may get more active.Real deer (on iphone-too bad I didn't have a real camera-they were quite close...)Xplane:

[LAdamson 240]

Well guys-Larry and I have been around since the beginning of flight simming and the "broken record" we have heard since the beginning is the superiority of xplane's flight models over fs's.I made some posts on xplane org of problems I had with the flight model and was told by one-a) fs fm's are a toy-game in compare and :( that xplane's flight models are superior-there just hasn't been a good one manifested yet because it takes too much work to make one.(paraphrasing).I have never had a problem with one person preferring a flight sim over another-I actually prefer many things in the present xplane over fsx.But if you have noticed, Larry , I, and others have a problem with misinformation. Stuff like fsx is more "gamelike" compared to fs9, "serious simmers don't like fsx", "fsx is for animal chasers" ,and the "flight models of xplane are superior to fsx's" all meet that criteria.So I wouldn't shoot the messenger but the message. I don't personally care if a fm is derived from pi meson laser nuclear reactive googly permutations.I do care if it reacts and flies like a real plane. Some "myths" need to be pointed out-especially when repeated like a mantra.

Truer words could not be spoken! :( And that's exactly it. I heard about the supposeable superiority of X-Plane's flight dynamics for years; yet I could never find it after repeatedly using the demo's, and I coined the phrase of "blade element theory superiority" as a "myth", years ago. Like Geoff A., we both dumped FS98 in favor of Pro-Pilot, because it came up with a better flight model for that time period. I'd have no problem at all jumping to X-Plane if I could just really enjoy the flight aspect. With Pro-Pilot one evening, I was doing simple turns around a point over the "synthetic" San Francisco area.................and thought WOW, that seemed almost real! The sim just had a good sense of dampening as I rolled the wings. X-Plane still reminds me of a vacuum, and I can't really explain it. Quite frankly, FS98 was about the same. You pulled the yoke back, and the nose went up; but no sensation of moving through air. So, as it stands; I don't get many sensations of "feel" with X-Plane. The X-Plane flight model isn't as good as some 3rd party models for MSFS in regards to what a plane should do, when you move the controls a specific way. The only time X-Plane is better than MSFS is reaction to tail surfaces on the ground roll. However, earlier versions of MSFS & Microsft's Combat 1 & 2 had superior ground roll effects, to that of X-Plane.Actually, there is one more thing that X-Plane can do somewhat better. And that is stopping at level after a fast roll. X-Plane seems to have no "inertia", and MSFS has a bit too much in doing a 360 degree roll. In a real airplane, your moving the flight surfaces against the air stream. It's rather easy to just stop the roll on a dime............so to speak. With MSFS you have to time it, and slow the rate of roll ahead of time. With X-Plane, you simply release the stick, and the roll will stop right there!Inertia is a tricky subject though. I use to play with it in Cessna's when I was beta testing. In a typical high wing Cessna, you can quickly roll the yoke to the left and release. The plane banks to the left, then quickly rolls back towards neutral and beyond to the right for a split second, and then level. That.........is "inertia". With my low wing RV, I'll roll to the left with the stick, release, and it just sit's there in a bank for a bit of time. It doesn't have as positive stability as the Cessna does, and reacts more like an aerobatic aircraft. Actually it is semi aerobatic and is rated as such. The lesson here, is that all airplanes certainly don't act the same. When you apply flaps in a high wing Cessna, the nose pitches up (ballooning ) and you push slightly forward on the yoke to compensate. With my RV, the nose pitches down, but you don't do any compensating. The X-Plane Cessnas and RV's both balloon up & require forward yoke/stick to prevent climbing. The X-Plane Cessna stays banked like my RV in a roll and release. These examples are just a few of what I'm talking about in regards to flight dynamics.L.Adamson

[Geofa 108]

Help Larry! I'm rapidly going over and becoming a convert.After working several days (still only 85% there) I have a nearly fully working rendition of my aircraft. Never been able to do that with fs....a real stormscope, a nexrad xm like setup, a fully working autopilot that works like my century IV-on and on. I got a pretty good looking panel in fs-but it didn't have this functionality-I am delighted. That is what I use a sim for-and I've never had this close to my real plane except when Reality Xp helped me with my Debonair for fs2002/04.Then there are little things you start to notice. Today I went to the outside view and noticed the rudder was blowing back and forth in the wind-better step on the rudder pedals. I took off in rain and lightening (all showing up on my stormscope, and 496)-started climbing in very realistic looking rain. At couple thousand feet higher- what the hay-it started turning to snow! My airspeed started dropping (I haven't added deice yet)-I looked out and-I was picking up ice.. The feel of loss of lift, performance etc. was extremely real-scary actually! (My instruments are not fully calibrated yet-so don't mind the readings).Luckily my family in the backseat was blissfully unaware as I began stalling and looking for a place to land-is that ice on the window next to my son?! :-lol ( I am a sucker for the 2d views in a 3d cockpit-wish they hadn't gotten rid of them in fsx.If I can just tone down the twitchy's in the fm between the cool effects, better scenery, better water, and ultra smooth flight and instruments among others I may just be the next convert. The fm (or making a plane fly right by it) is the only thing standing in my way right now! Like fine wine or beer the beauty starts coming out after many hours! I have to say I am very presently surprised with the new version (beta).

[LAdamson 240]

Help Larry! I'm rapidly going over and becoming a convert.

You'll make a fine ambassador! :( L.Adamson

[Geofa 108]

You'll make a fine ambassador! :( L.Adamson

Not sure either of us would... :( . If I can't get the pesky fm under control at some point all bets are off.

[LAdamson 240]

If I can't get the pesky fm under control at some point all bets are off.

Well....... good luck.Just today, on our experimental aviation forum; a potential builder (non-pilot) asked about flight simulation. One reply was---- forget Microsoft as they laid everyone in the flight sim department off and closed the studio. Get X-Plane because it uses real world physics, and will accurately simulate the way your airplane is supposed to fly....All I know, is that my RV doesn't fly like the X-Plane version does.L.Adamson

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Actually, there is one more thing that X-Plane can do somewhat better. And that is stopping at level after a fast roll. X-Plane seems to have no "inertia", and MSFS has a bit too much in doing a 360 degree roll. In a real airplane, your moving the flight surfaces against the air stream. It's rather easy to just stop the roll on a dime............so to speak. With MSFS you have to time it, and slow the rate of roll ahead of time.

Just remember this is one thing you can easily correct in MSFS by adjusting the MOI values in the weight_and_balance section of the aircraft.cfg. From GA to heavy jets it's fairly easy to get the inertia "just right". Any changes to axis response by adjusting the MOI values can be changed by minor adjustments to the sensitivity values in the flight_tuning section. That's one of the greatest features I enjoy about the MSFS flight model, it's very easy to get the feel to match up to real life regardless of aircraft type. Regards,John

[Geofa 108]

Just remember this is one thing you can easily correct in MSFS by adjusting the MOI values in the weight_and_balance section of the aircraft.cfg. From GA to heavy jets it's fairly easy to get the inertia "just right". Any changes to axis response by adjusting the MOI values can be changed by minor adjustments to the sensitivity values in the flight_tuning section. That's one of the greatest features I enjoy about the MSFS flight model, it's very easy to get the feel to match up to real life regardless of aircraft type. Regards,John

It is interesting the differences between the two sims. In my case, my goal is always to duplicate my aircraft panel so I can use a sim for valuable practice.I was able to do a fairly good rendition in fs-with an add on program of course-fspanel studio. However, as a "layman" I was not able to create some important custom instruments I needed-such as a stormscope, Century IV autopilot, and a basic dual manifold/rpm gauge among others. So the panel was more "eye candy" than fuction-though it served my needs.With xplane with no add on-I have been able to do duplicate all the important instruments and I may be going for near 100% functionality-both looks and reality of usage. The ease of customizing instruments is very easy and do able. I am now not at the mercy of simming with a semi real cockpit or waiting for a 3rd party developer to do it (which in my case has never happened-there still is no B55 Baron for fs-freeware or payware!).As for tuning the flight model- xplane's works differently. I have not got into it yet-but it appears one can place "invisible" structures on the aircraft to tune the xplane flight models-and there are an overwhelming number of parameters to tune in the basic plane maker.So far I find ground handling, general straight and level more believable in xplane. What needs to be dampened or tuned is an over reaction and lack of momentum to aileron, pitch, and rudder inputs. The icing I experienced last night in xplane was not only more believable in visuals (ice on windows etc.) but the performance dropoff and reactions was very good and actually scary as I started to approach a stall/wing drop with a big ice accumulation. It duplicated pretty well what I have experienced and beyond with ice-certainly more complex than fs's frozen pitot tube and basic simulation of the aerodynamic effects.Add smooth instruments and there is huge potential here.So the question might be-is the xplane fm able to be tuned to perfection? Are the fewer xplane users/developers vs. the massive fs users/developers the reason we have not seen many/any good handling aircraft or is there a flaw in the fm that will always create a barrier? Are the greater complexities of the variables so complex in xplane that one must be a nasa scientist to get something good?If greater numbers start migrating to xplane we may have an answer soon. In the meantime I am going to be looking-cause there are some new realities in this sim that are tugging me like a magnet.

[Murmur 3,941]

Today I went to the outside view and noticed the rudder was blowing back and forth in the wind-better step on the rudder pedals.

I think I can explain that. I presume you're using the payware Baron for X-Plane. Some authors add artificial stability to their aircrafts in Plane-Maker to make the flight model more stable. The payware Baron uses this trick, so the blowing rudder was actually due to the artificial stability in action. :)Infact, if you go in the failure screen and fail the "ART STAB", the rudder should stop moving (and the flight dynamics should actually change a bit as well).Marco

[Geofa 108]

I think I can explain that. I presume you're using the payware Baron for X-Plane. Some authors add artificial stability to their aircrafts in Plane-Maker to make the flight model more stable. The payware Baron uses this trick, so the blowing rudder was actually due to the artificial stability in action. :)Infact, if you go in the failure screen and fail the "ART STAB", the rudder should stop moving (and the flight dynamics should actually change a bit as well).Marco

I am using the payware Baron-but it is anything but stable!Too bad about the rudder-I thought it was one of those nice little touches you find with time.Right now-about the only way I can handle the Baron is on autopilot. It is way too touchy like an aerobatic plane, has none of the real heaviness on controls. The controls also don't reduce input at slow speeds but still react as if you were in cruise-so therefore I have gotten the plane near/on the runway but it isn't pretty. One second of looking at a radio and it is in a 60 degree bank.I'll be looking into this next after I finish my panel-but the default Fs Baron is lightyears closer to a real Baron than xplane's. Like fsimp-maybe a translation program to convert fs fm's to xplanes! :-lol

[Murmur 3,941]

What needs to be dampened or tuned is an over reaction and lack of momentum to aileron, pitch, and rudder inputs.

Hi Geofa,inertia/damping around the three axes can be tuned in Plane-maker in two ways:1) Using custom MOI's (just like in MSFS): go to Standard->Weight & Balance->RADII OF GYRATION, check "Use your own radii of gyration", and then set the ROG's for the three axes. X-Plane tends to underestimate them when calculating them automatically.For the B55, the real MOI's are:Pitch - 4,23 ftYaw - 6,34 ftRoll - 4,91 ftThough you'll probably need to raise them quite a bit to make the flight model less twitchy.2) The other method is to increase flight controls deflection time to simulate controls inertia: go to Standard->Control Geometry->Trim & Speed, and increase the values for "minimum elevator (aileron, rudder) deflection time". Default is 0.00 seconds, that is instantaneous controls deflection.The first method also effects aircraft reactions to turbulence, the second does not.Both methods do not affect performance of the aircraft, so my advice is to start here to tune the flight model of your Baron. :)Marco

[Geofa 108]

Hi Geofa,inertia/damping around the three axes can be tuned in Plane-maker in two ways:1) Using custom MOI's (just like in MSFS): go to Standard->Weight & Balance->RADII OF GYRATION, check "Use your own radii of gyration", and then set the ROG's for the three axes. X-Plane tends to underestimate them when calculating them automatically.For the B55, the real MOI's are:Pitch - 4,23 ftYaw - 6,34 ftRoll - 4,91 ftThough you'll probably need to raise them quite a bit to make the flight model less twitchy.2) The other method is to increase flight controls deflection time to simulate controls inertia: go to Standard->Control Geometry->Trim & Speed, and increase the values for "minimum elevator (aileron, rudder) deflection time". Default is 0.00 seconds, that is instantaneous controls deflection.The first method also effects aircraft reactions to turbulence, the second does not.Both methods do not affect performance of the aircraft, so my advice is to start here to tune the flight model of your Baron. :)Marco

Thanks Marco-I'll give it a try!

[Geofa 108]

Marco!Simply amazing! I have no idea what any of that means-but the difference is like night and day. Now the axis's are starting to feel right and there is a feeling of momentum. I will be tweaking these greatly but it looks like the right feel is possible.Which brings me to my next question-why would a payware product not have these already set? Why would the default aircraft in xplane not be "tuned" so that a first users impression is delight instead of dismay?My feeling-Xplane needs a good default set of aircraft-both visuals, fm, and functionality to show off the product.Right now a new user is faced with a hodge podge-and many will be turned off-unfortunately. I almost was.Thanks so much for removing another (big) barrier.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Marco!Simply amazing! I have no idea what any of that means-but the difference is like night and day. Now the axis's are starting to feel right and there is a feeling of momentum. I will be tweaking these greatly but it looks like the right feel is possible.Which brings me to my next question-why would a payware product not have these already set? Why would the default aircraft in xplane not be "tuned" so that a first users impression is delight instead of dismay?My feeling-Xplane needs a good default set of aircraft-both visuals, fm, and functionality to show off the product.Right now a new user is faced with a hodge podge-and many will be turned off-unfortunately. I almost was.Thanks so much for removing another (big) barrier.

I'm also going to have to give this one a try. I have to say FDE design for XPlane is still a black art for me, only because I have spent most of my time with MSFS. Thank you too, Marco!Regards,John

[RatRace 4]

Marco!Simply amazing! I have no idea what any of that means-but the difference is like night and day. Now the axis's are starting to feel right and there is a feeling of momentum. I will be tweaking these greatly but it looks like the right feel is possible.

Oh no, in that case Larry will have to find something else to moan about :(