>Some of you really need to wake up!>PeteMy friend that's EXACTLY how I feel about you after reading this very predictable thread that you've felt the need to start. And that's exactly how I feel about the many others who agree with you, and constantly act as if a close loved one has been publicly attacked whenever people attempt to offer constructive criticism of FS. It's not your relative, it's simply a commercial product that many of us have specific ideas and observations about. We want a better flight sim--and until it basically reflects reality we always will--and we feel we have certain ideas that might actually help it along the way.If you went to hear an orchestra and took a musician friend along, do you think the musician, while appreciating the concert, might offer more detailed thoughts about the nuances of the performance and what he enjoyed, along with thoughts about was lacking? I'm sure it would be the case, and there's no difference when it comes to MSFS.Frankly much of what I write here is simply my way of trying to communicate with the Microsoft programmers, because direct interaction isn't possible or even feasible. I think many others will understand the observations, and add more and tell me about things I haven't thought of, and that can lead to a constructive dialog--but there are also many who simply can't see what you're trying to say, and they misunderstand, and become offended, and try to put down and label people who have the temerity to offer critiques and suggest improvements...and so it goes. Ad infinitum. Most of the time I try to ignore them; sometimes I take the time to type out a response like this.But by hook or by crook, the simulator still gets better, and hopefully there are people here who have something to do with that.

Interesting thoughts Pete, some of which I agree with, and others I don'tBashing for the sake of bashing is just plain dumb.... If you want to see much worse--go to the Sony minidisc forums. They are unmoderated, and trolled to death.However, anything that can be caught before a product gets to market is good--better now, vs. once it's in the hands of half a million consumers. From screenshots, I can't find any flaws--maybe I'm not looking hard enough.But I do grow more concerned, when no mention is made of what, if anything, has been done to fix multiplayer. Microsoft is making us pay for a patch for that piece of FS--if they intend to fix it. I won't purchase FS2004 if it isn't, just out of protest.Sometimes I see posts like this as opportunity to bash those who aren't on the FS "Glee Club". Heck--even take a neutral approach, and someone's going to attack your attitude. All I see now are a bunch of shots--nothing indicative of what FS2004 may be. But the one video I did see did become a slide show at times when the fantastic weather engine was displayed. What does that mean for low end users? How does that effect the kids who see "400MHZ and up", only to throw the program in the garbage with a rather disillusioned impression of the simming hobby?Admit it or not, many of the things that make FS2002 so great came from nagging, constant nagging, over issues that came in FS2000 and versions prior. Are these the greatest sims going? No doubt. Are there bashers who are just here to whine? No doubt. But there are also bashers who are here to look like part of the crowd, or who won't share any observation about the coming sim, because of "peer" pressure. And I doubt such people scarcely remember how FS evolved to the point it has. It wasn't just Microsoft's doing. We've beta tested every new release MS has done in the form of our passion for whatever is currently on the shelf. I think both sides have done a good job, but to stop at making it better because someone calls it "whining"?--pretty sad.

Hi, "criticism is good! I agree. But wait until the product has been released before passing judgement!"This should always be like this.. for any conclusion on any product.Cheers!Chris

I don't care about all those who choose to bash FSCF before it's been released. Chances are I'm buying it no matter what anyone says. I've been simming since SubLogic FS 1.0 and nothing is stopping me now. =)So whine & moan all you want. It's the same thing every 2 years!EricFlying Tigers Groupwww.virtualATP.org

You make a key point Eric--before COF's release, all we can do is assume. No one should diss the product until it's out, and we hear real feedback from trusted members here. Having said that, even Tom A. noted the clouds caused a hit on performance. But sometimes a slight slider adjustment still gives the realism, without the penalty. That's very true of Autogen, as an example.I saw a screenshot today that was just outstanding....can't describe how real it looked. The fps counter in the shot showed 20fps, and it was decked out with a lot of clouds. To me, I'd see that as encouraging. Because the best systems aren't even in wide circulation yet, and won't be until later in the year.I think if you've been like me, and stalled on an upgrade, COF will be the perfect chance to get exactly what you want. I'm fairly sure with a $500 budget, I'll be able to have a decent system for running what I see.... Moreover, I may be able to plug it in an ancient system first--see where the bottlenecks are, and buy a better solution...Still, I hope we don't go into a routine where the "Glee Club" jumps all over someone for raising a legitimate issue, like the recent ground handling discussion, or something as minor as the missing PEI in FS2002. That routine is also repeated every two years, and in part, I believe it's motivated by certain Glee Club members' beliefs that they'll be picked for the next beta....