I feel somewhat compelled to respond to this...Trip, I do understand your frustration, but alas, this is the way of the capitalistic society that most of us have the good fortune to be a part of. I feel strongly that payware designers develop their products not out of greed, but out of necessity. We all must fulfill our obligations, financially and otherwise, to ourselves, and to our families. Yes, this is a hobby to me, and you, and probably to most of us here. At the same time, we have to realize, and respect the right of others to be compensated for their time and efforts.I must digress a bit to prove my point (if there is one here). I myself have chosen a career which started out as a hobby to me. I am in the music business. I live, sleep, and breathe my passion for music each and every day that goes by. I would be happy doing music for free, however, this is just not a practical solution. In order for me to have somewhat of a semblance of normal life, I do have to make money. It does not mean that I care any less, contribute less, or don't dearly love my job/hobby. It also doesn't mean that if I did it for free I would have a greater love or a deeper appreciation for music. It's purely a matter of survival.No, not all payware is developed to the quality of some of its freeware counterparts. No, not all CD's that are produced are to the same standards as music that is freely available (legally, not file-sharing, of course). It is merely a matter of personal opinion. I'm sure that this applies to all levels and all kinds of business and anyone that has a career could draw parallels to my analogy.Bottom line, it is your choice and I respect your decision, but I don't think you should generalize so broadly what makes a product good or bad, right or wrong.-------------Michael

Go cry me a river. Seriously.The reason so many developers have gone commercial is becuase of...wait for it...US! Not US as in the United States of America, but "us" as in all the FS enthusiasts. We want more realism. We want more gadgets. And we want it NOW!!!One developer comes out with some gee-golly, whiz-bang new feature. Well guess what, you bet your bottom dollar that most folks will want that same feature on the next product from all other developers. Some will even want a patch for pre-existing products. Others will want the new feature, but with more realism. And they won't stop there. They'll whine and moan if that next product from any developer doesn't include even more ground-breaking new features.So to satisfy OUR demands, developers began spending more and more time and more and more money on those new products. Now they could continue as freeware, but it gets hard to justify your efforts as a love for the hobby when you've spent many months programming and a lot of money on photographs and sound recordings and you get nothing in return but a couple thank you's.And I won't even go into the support of the new products. With all the complexity comes an increase in the likelihood that they won't work on every system. It also means that a fairly thorough manual better be written for it. That leads to droves of users who refuse to read it, but instead fill your Inbox with complaints and cries for help.All this work and support for free, for the love of the hobby.:-roll

Hi guys,I must say, leave the guy throw away his payware software!!!! He probably just bought a Flightsoft packaged, or Perfect Flight one, or "Tishman Many Names" one, so he

Hi Larry,Glad someone here remembered FSD.Cheers,Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australia

EXACTLY!_____________________________Jeff S. KDTWPP-ASEL

>I fly a lot in the real world lately, & that is taking most of>my 'want' out of it. Once it becomes a job (for me anyways)>it becomes just that, & at least I start to get tired of the>business end of things, & I don't even fly for an airline,>YET!>Fear not................Once you've cycled past all that "airline" stuff in real life, you might recycle back to radio control, or perhaps simulated P/C flight! :) I'm old enough & associate with enough of these former or "near" former commercial pilots, to see it every day. It all revolves in circles!! One aquaintance of mine, fly's 767's, has built and regularly flies an extremely fast & manuverable experimental catagory plane.................. but is now getting more into R/C.Fifteen years ago, when I was much heavier into R/C, our club had many prior military & commercial pilots who still enjoyed flying through this different "medium". But then we didn't have desktop P/C's back then. Now that we do, I prefer it as real as possible. Like duplicating a Piper Archer, flying a Marchetti SF260 through manuvers, or learning the systems of the Flight1 Merdian. L.Adamson

Hello,"I'm going back to using only those add-ons developed by those folks who dearly love this hobby and who contribute so much to the enjoyment of it for all us - and who do so totally free of commercial concern"Ah, well you see it's not quite as simple as that - because quite a few evil, money grabbing cynical payware designers actually still produce freeware. So are you also going to throw away that too?If I may enlighten you with some stats on my own, and I'm sure Steve at FSD and other people will have done similarly:Since 1996:Fly Version One: Revamped every default aircraft flight model. Added custom textures. Development time: 1200 hours. FREEFly Version One: Several new addons with full liveries, including further tweaked flight models. Development time: 400 hours. FREEFly Version Two: Adjusted f/m's and published fixes for several aircraft; Development time: 300 hours. FREEFS2002: New metallic Textures for the C182. New flight model. Development time: 500 hours (including Sean's graphics). FREEFS2002: New flight models for some default aircraft. Development time:230 hours. FREEFS2002: New livery and radically new flight model C172 SP. Development time: Approx 700 hours. FREEFS2002: Falcon 50 (with Yannick and Fred). Total Development time approx 4000 hours. F/m dev time: approx 800 hours. FREEFS2002: Robin GA aircraft with Yannick and Fred. Total f/m dev timeL approx 350 hours. FREEFS2002: Maam Sim B-25. F/m development time: 600-850 hours. Total development time: probably in excess of 6000 hours. Payware for fund raising but work supplied by me and all the other designers: FREESupport given for all the above approx 1000 hours.Commercial Stuff:1. Citabria Decathlon dual aircraft package for Fly 2. Total development time: 3500 hours. Price $15. 2. Marchetti SF260 for FS2002. Development time: In excess of 4000 hours. Price $25, but currently $19.Now, what was it you were saying about developers and their exploitation of Flight Sim enthusiasts?Rob Young - www.realairsimulations.com

Without a doubt, this is the silliest thread I've ever read on Avsim. Thought I stumbled into an old Python sketch. The words 'nose', face' and 'spite' spring to mind. Enough of the high-and-mighty stance-taking chaps. There's got to be more productive ways to spend our time that discussing one individuals warped desires to wear electronic sackcloth and ashes.AndyEGTR

I have no idea why I am jumping into the fray here.I have a statement here first and then I must proceed with IMHO (In My Humble Opinion):"MS Flight Simulator 2002 - I paid $69.95 for it a when my Disk 1 was eaten like lunch by my CDROM I paid another $30 shipping and handling for a replacement." That is my statement! Bill Gates must not care about this hobby, if he did, he wouldn't have charged me; according to your logic. Of course Bill Gates doesn't care about this hobby, but I bet several guys in the MSFS team are addicts just like everybody here today in this forum. On with IMHO:If it werent for guys like SimFlyers, PSS with their Airbus and Boeing products, FlyTampa, FSGenesis, UK2000 Airports, the guy who did FSNavigator and several other payware units, I wouldn't even be interested. The Stocks FS2k2 sceneries are so dull and unrealistic I just don't enjoy flying into airports I don't have scenery for. Gary Wildup is a great freeware developer for KLSC, KDEN, KPHX and a few other projects and I use his stuff where I can. I also have a freeware KDTW that is a great little jewel. But, by far, the only people that can put a payware quality project out are the guys who have the money to sit down in front of a computer for 12+ hours per day without a regular paying job for three to six months at a time and churn out the scenery and/or aircraft. Where do they get that money? You and me, the customer. They have a love for the scenery or they most likely wouldn't do it. I read once on SimFlyers forum, that their designers have to fall in love with the airport they are working on or they just won't do the airport. It must present a challenge to them, or they dont' have the desire. Yes, this sounds like money grubbing bas****s to me. Even though guys like Gary Wildup do great freeware work, it is just that, Freeware. I just flew out of KDEN with Gary's scenery. It is great, for freeware. It just doesn't have the qaulity that FlyTampa or SimFLyers do, period. On aircraft, dude, I don't need to go there do I? I have NEVER seen a payware panel that could match anything from PIC or PSS. NEVER. We don't even need to go there.Payware is what has made FS2k2 a quality experience and has drawn me into a pure flying addiction.-----------Wilson HinesChief CaptainBush Logistics Corp.http://heavylhc.comAOL IM: dal276wh

Right on!Grahame EDHLXP Pro SP1+DirectX 9.0aEpox 8K9A Via KT400 AMD XP2700(2250MHz)MSI GF3Ti200 128mb512mb DDRam Infinion DDR 333WD 60gb 7200rpmChieftech case with Enermax PSUTitan and Pabst cooling

If I may add, when you purchase Windows, you already have games in it (spider, mine sweap...). Some just prefer spent more to play other games on the base plateform...When you purchase FS, you already have scenery, aircrafts.. some just prefer spent more to fly other scenery, aircrafts on the base plateform...in both cases, for what you want, you can find freeware and payware software...in both cases, you first purchase a plateform on which you can expand to the direction of your liking. There are no differences.

THAT does it!!! I'm not going to release my Dornier 328 as payware; it'll be freeware instead. :-)WOW Trip, your reaction seems a bit extreme, IMHO. While, I am a freeware supporter, I have bought a couple payware titles. I have gotten some enjoyment out of them as well. True, I have some freeware that should be payware due to the quality. If a freeware designer, whose stuff I like, was to release a payware aircraft, I would support it. Frankly I would buy more payware ac if I had the $$$ to spare. Now that I have kids I can't spend all the $$$ on myself. --T

Just to give folks a bit of a reality check here, related to rob's post, the average work year for an American is on the order of 2000 hours. Rob has put in more of his time than most of us put in at work over three to five years. Colin

>You will all be happy to learn that I have burned all my>possessions in a potlach on my front lawn.Except for the PC and broadband...:(

I don't want more. My favourite plane is the Archer from DreamFleet. Thats pretty 'basic' as addons go, but it is class. My next favourite is the all-in-one SF260...Blah..By more, i refer to gadgets. The Meridian, however, is another story..:)