VNAV ISSUE - TUTURIAL 4

[Guest pcpilot2010]

Hi Mark: I had also first suspected the same (when my VNAV ALT was not working using the FS2004 version of the chapter 4 exercise 4) as being a possible culprit - i.e., the grayed out Option check box for "VNAV ALT (if applicable)" under PMDG/Options/AFDS. But in my case this didn't seem to matter once I rebuilt the model in native FSX; then onwards I started getting VNAV ALT whenever I intervened with an MCP altitude setting lower than the cruise altitude, on the ascent. Sorry not sure why this is still happening in your case. All I can suggest is to try once again from absolute scratch and go step by step (I mean, start with a fresh PMDG 747 with GE engine, from the main MSFX menu - just in case you merely deleted everything the last time and reporgrammed). Good luck. Ravi G

Guys,Sorry to rehash this but this has been bugging me. I'm still having problems with this.I tried building my own flight plan (given the tutorial seems to be designed for FS2004) but I still only get the MCP ALT intervention and not VNAV ALT. In my case, no Alt restrictions programmed into FMC, CRZ altitude set to a high level but just setting MCP to some intermediate value.Can someone provide the specific steps to get into VNAV ALT mode?Incidentally, I notice there's an Option in the PMDG Add-ons drop down menu and if you look in Options/AFDS, there is a check box for "VNAV ALT (if applicable)". On my set up the check box is checked but the option is grayed out.Just wondering if this has anything to do with it?Would appreciate some guidance with this.Cheers,

Hi Mark: I had also first suspected the same (when my VNAV ALT was not working using the FS2004 version of the chapter 4 exercise 4) as being a possible culprit - i.e., the grayed out Option check box for "VNAV ALT (if applicable)" under PMDG/Options/AFDS. But in my case this didn't seem to matter once I rebuilt the model in native FSX; then onwards I started getting VNAV ALT whenever I intervened with an MCP altitude setting lower than the cruise altitude, on the ascent. Sorry not sure why this is still happening in your case. All I can suggest is to try once again from absolute scratch and go step by step (I mean, start with a fresh PMDG 747 with GE engine, from the main MSFX menu - just in case you merely deleted everything the last time and reporgrammed). Good luck. Ravi G

Guys,Sorry to rehash this but this has been bugging me. I'm still having problems with this.I tried building my own flight plan (given the tutorial seems to be designed for FS2004) but I still only get the MCP ALT intervention and not VNAV ALT. In my case, no Alt restrictions programmed into FMC, CRZ altitude set to a high level but just setting MCP to some intermediate value.Can someone provide the specific steps to get into VNAV ALT mode?Incidentally, I notice there's an Option in the PMDG Add-ons drop down menu and if you look in Options/AFDS, there is a check box for "VNAV ALT (if applicable)". On my set up the check box is checked but the option is grayed out.Just wondering if this has anything to do with it?Would appreciate some guidance with this.Cheers,

[787flyer 648]

Hi Ravi,Thanks for the advice. Got it sorted!I can now get VNAV ALT to display consistently at any altitude when inputting an intervening altitude on the MCP.My steps were to first restart FSX from the Windows desktop, then select a new PMDG 747 aircraft followed by Load Manager and then start preparing the cockpit and programming the FMC. It seems that I was still using a saved aircraft.cheers,Mark

[Guest pcpilot2010]

Hi Mark>> It seems that I was still using a saved aircraft.I had suspected as much :-)Great that it worked out for you as well.... Back to the pleasures of flight simulation !!! Ravi G

Hi Ravi,Thanks for the advice. Got it sorted!I can now get VNAV ALT to display consistently at any altitude when inputting an intervening altitude on the MCP.My steps were to first restart FSX from the Windows desktop, then select a new PMDG 747 aircraft followed by Load Manager and then start preparing the cockpit and programming the FMC. It seems that I was still using a saved aircraft.cheers,Mark

[Benjamin J 751]

You change to ALT at 9000 logically because of the MCP constraint. When cleared higher, change MCP to next clearance limit or cruise (350), then press the ALT button. The value will be put into the FMS and you should be back to the VNAV mode. See page 8-15 in the AUTOMATIC FLIGHT MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS manual.The manual is required reading :)

No, that's not true - it should change to VNAV ALT, not just ALT, which is what Mark is seeing. That said, I have never seen that problem arise, but reading the other posts, I'm sure you'll find the solution. By the way, the manual can be skipped. I personally would recommend the autoflight and FMC parts of the manual, but I don't think you have to bother with the rest, although it does indeed heighten your understanding of the aircraft's functions.

[Guest pcpilot2010]

Hello Benjamin Following up on your recommendation on the manual, do you happen to know of a good reference for refining manual landing of the 747 (with minimum support from the auto flight system) ? I think I can do it reasonably well now (after many try's, yet visually depending on the glidescope indicator still) - but this has been more or less based on instincts, so not sure if I am following all the procedures and nuances as required. Thanks. Ravi G

No, that's not true - it should change to VNAV ALT, not just ALT, which is what Mark is seeing. That said, I have never seen that problem arise, but reading the other posts, I'm sure you'll find the solution. By the way, the manual can be skipped. I personally would recommend the autoflight and FMC parts of the manual, but I don't think you have to bother with the rest, although it does indeed heighten your understanding of the aircraft's functions.

[Benjamin J 751]

I see what I can find for you on Google, although honestly, I think you'll probably learn most by looking closely at what the A/P does. In the end, the same principles that apply to a C172, apply to the Boeing 747, and seeing somebody else do it, will be the best help you can get. So, I can advise two things:1) Do the lessons that you with FS. Here I mean the ones by the actual flight instructor (forgot his name), not the tutorial flights. He';ll learn you to do good landings with a C172.Once you can get that worked out well:2) Let the A/P land the 747 a few times and sit back and observe. The 747 A/P can do a full autoland, so let it do its job. Once you feel comfortable, try the same landing, but do it yourself this time.I'll see if I can find anything that's closer to a tutorial, but maybe somebody else will find some more stuff in the meantime. It really is a pitt the type rating lessons were never completed with a fifth chapter...

[downscc 1,327]

Most game controller throttle axis are very toy-ish and there is always that turbine lag, so I recommend hand flying approaches with autothrottle speed set to your desired Vref+10 or whatever is appropriate. This allows you to focus on attitude (pitch and roll). Press F1 to close throttles about 50 agl and flare. Flare as Ben recommends, mimicking the autoloand. Finally, practice.

[Guest pcpilot2010]

Benjamin and Dan: Thanks for the suggestions. I had tried to follow the original FS C172 lessons when I first started with MSFX, but had a frustrating time repeating after the instructor. In particular, I could never get the key early exercise on aileron-rudder coordination right (after turning off the auto rudder option). I was always over-correcting it, even after hours of practice, in fact it looked preferable to leave the aircraft uncoorinated than trying my coordination attempts. And I simply gave up beyond that point :-( In contrast I was able to reproduce fairly well the expected behavior under the manual portion (chapter 2 ???) of the 747 type rating course - which I enjoyed thoroughly well... It is indeed a pity that there is no Chapter 5. Perhaps my physical coordination was pathetic at that early stage, or may be I should go for a payware C172 (analogous to the PMDG 747) to have better response. In any case, I will be going back and giving another serious try at the MSFX lessons from the instructor. Perhaps I am better qualified to try the C172 at this point, now that I am doing well with the 747 :-) I did have to practise a gazillion times to get that 747 manual landing (from about 3000 ft AGL at 10 miles from the runway threshold) reasonably correct... I have managed to manually control the pitch, yaw and speed (i.e., stay within a range of 138 knots to 153 knots, the target being 145 knots), concurrently... Grown a bit of anticipatory ability to budget ahead for the turbine lag, and I have a Saitek yoke/throttle combo, so the throttle does allow a little bit of fine grain control. Yes I have tried leaving the speed to the autothrottle, and it is indeed better, though I felt like I was partially cheating in the exam :-) But I think I should switch back to that for a while to get the pitch/yaw perfected. And yes, my personal 747 instructor continues to be the autopilot. Cheers. Ravi GToday, 01:26 PM

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#21

Member Group: AVSIM Staff Posts: 764 Joined: 11-February 09 Member No.: 166,534 I see what I can find for you on Google, although honestly, I think you'll probably learn most by looking closely at what the A/P does. In the end, the same principles that apply to a C172, apply to the Boeing 747, and seeing somebody else do it, will be the best help you can get. So, I can advise two things:1) Do the lessons that you with FS. Here I mean the ones by the actual flight instructor (forgot his name), not the tutorial flights. He';ll learn you to do good landings with a C172.Once you can get that worked out well:2) Let the A/P land the 747 a few times and sit back and observe. The 747 A/P can do a full autoland, so let it do its job. Once you feel comfortable, try the same landing, but do it yourself this time.I'll see if I can find anything that's closer to a tutorial, but maybe somebody else will find some more stuff in the meantime. It really is a pitt the type rating lessons were never completed with a fifth chapter... Benjamin van SoldtAVSIM Staff Reviewer

Most game controller throttle axis are very toy-ish and there is always that turbine lag, so I recommend hand flying approaches with autothrottle speed set to your desired Vref+10 or whatever is appropriate. This allows you to focus on attitude (pitch and roll). Press F1 to close throttles about 50 agl and flare. Flare as Ben recommends, mimicking the autoloand. Finally, practice.

[michal 44]

or may be I should go for a payware C172

You could do that with most likely much better results. I never found default 172 to be satisfactory and I have flown this aircraft in real life a lot. If you ever want to try some payware 172 I recommend Flight One's 172 but I know there are other good choices as well.

[Guest pcpilot2010]

Oh great, I knew that I should try some payware version of C172, but wasn't sure which one to go for (i.e., none as famous as PMDG 747). I will try Flight One 172. Some day I do plan to sign up to learn a real Cessna :-) By the way there is another (I guess more expensive) 747 payware product called "PS1 744 from Aerowinx.com". At their web site it says they are "sold out", and a new version will be coming... Does anybody have any experience with this product ? Is it a higher end 747 model ? ps. Sorry, I hope I am not dragging the discussion away from the context of this thread; perhaps I should post another thread... Thanks. Ravi G

You could do that with most likely much better results. I never found default 172 to be satisfactory and I have flown this aircraft in real life a lot. If you ever want to try some payware 172 I recommend Flight One's 172 but I know there are other good choices as well.

[brian747 5]

Hi Ravi!(With apologies for continuing O.T)...

By the way there is another (I guess more expensive) 747 payware product called "PS1 744 from Aerowinx.com". At their web site it says they are "sold out", and a new version will be coming... Does anybody have any experience with this product ? Is it a higher end 747 model ?

<grin> PS1 is no longer available, although all the indications are that it will be reborn in a new and yet more splendid incarnation as PSX, sometime next year. The PS1 manual which I have is

[Guest pcpilot2010]

Hi Brian: Great to interact with one of the original authors :( Yes I did run into discussions on something called "PSX" keenly being awaited for within the community, but didn't realize that PSX was the coming avatar of PS1 !! Robert Randazzo also authored the the PMDG type rating course... - great piece of reading (which transformed me, the "coach class civilian", to a marginally competent 747 pilot in a matter of days - i.e., to the extent of taking the aircraft through takeoff and cruise till the final fix; for the rest of it there is autolanding for now I guess :( ). I looked up the aerowinx tuotrial section - lots of great reading material including the 160 page document that you wrote (and not necessarily PS1 specific either); unfortunately all documents there are password protected and presumably accessible only to those who had purchased PS1 744 in the past :( ... Ravi G

Hi Ravi!(With apologies for continuing O.T)...<grin> PS1 is no longer available, although all the indications are that it will be reborn in a new and yet more splendid incarnation as PSX, sometime next year. The PS1 manual which I have is

[brian747 5]

Hi Ravi!

Great to interact with one of the original authors :(

That's a great compliment, but far from being the case, I'm afraid. :( There was only one author, in fact: Hardy wrote the simulation entirely on his own. I reckon no one had told him that it was impossible, so he just went ahead and did it. :(

I looked up the aerowinx tuotrial section - lots of great reading material including the 160 page document that you wrote (and not necessarily PS1 specific either); unfortunately all documents there are password protected and presumably accessible only to those who had purchased PS1 744 in the past B) ...

My apologies, Ravi, but although not entirely PS1-specific the document was protected because it was intended only for those who had actually bought PS1. After all this time, however, you could always mail Hardy on his new forum

[Guest pcpilot2010]

Hi Brian:Many thanks for the offer. Let me try to contact Hardy Heinlin and see if he will accept my request - I guess I should be able to find a contact link for him on the aerowinx site... If he agrees I will very much appreciate to have a copy of the version you offered - especially with all the appendices; I am hungry to absorb as much as I can on the fundamentals :( And yes, I am quite new to flight simulation in general, barring the bit of experience and knowledge I gained on my recently acquired PMDG 747. Have a great day. Ravi G

Hi Ravi!That's a great compliment, but far from being the case, I'm afraid. :( There was only one author, in fact: Hardy wrote the simulation entirely on his own. I reckon no one had told him that it was impossible, so he just went ahead and did it. :( My apologies, Ravi, but although not entirely PS1-specific the document was protected because it was intended only for those who had actually bought PS1. After all this time, however, you could always mail Hardy on his new forum

[brian747 5]

Hi Ravi!Since this is now definitely O.T., I think we'd best continue this conversation elsewhere.I'll PM you...Cheers,Brian