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Guest PhilC

Carenado 210- VC Eyepoint Problem?

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Well, after reading some very favorable comments on the Carenado 210, I just loaded it up. At first much to like...But am I the only person who noticed that the eyepoint in the VC is... strange. First, is the view forward in a 210 really that bad? Unless you raise your seat through the roof, there's absolutely no way to see the runway ahead while taxiing, landing, or the ground while flying level. Then, if you lower your seat to a normal height in relation to the side windows, you find that panning left/right gives you a great view of the leather shoulder or headrest areas in your seat, which you are viewing from inside-out! and of course you're now looking up at the panel.Unless I'm doing something wrong here- and I've tried all the standard eyepoint tweaks and such- there simply doesn't seem to be a way to combine a realisitic/useable view forward with a normal seating position for looking in any other direction in the VC. Anyone else experiencing this? Best,Joel

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I'm seeing that to a lesser extent. The 210 panel is extremely high I'm afraid. I didn't fly the 210 for real, but I did fly 185's and 206's, and with the 206 there was a similar problem (RW). I had to jack my seat up a fair bit to see over, then duck my head under a bit to see straight out. I'm only about 5'9" so that's why I had to up my seat a fair bit. It was a pain, but I managed. In the Carenado 210, it seems a bit exaggerated, and I think the fact that you can't simply "duck" like in real life, amplifies this a bit. I wish they could drop the panel a bit, IMHO, but I'm not terribly concerned about it at this point. Might be an idea to drop them a line and suggest this as a change for the 2004 version.Glenn

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>Anyone else experiencing this? >As in my reply to the other post, I guess not! :)Didn't give it a second thought until you mentioned it. Have you tried using shift enter & shift backspace to lower & raise the seat?Or ctrl shift enter/backspace to move back & forth. I do most of this with active camera/mouse wheel & the hat switch.L.Adamsonedit---- this is what I'm seeing. First pic is default, second is rotated with hat switch, and 3rd has the seat moved forward with active camera. These moves can also be done with keyboard.edit again---- I should mention that I prefer views like in the first pic to begin with, because I can check my mixture position. I fly out of high altitude airports in real life, and mixture is always a concern.http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/23949.jpghttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/23950.jpghttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/23951.jpg

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>First, is the view forward in a 210 really that bad? Unless>you raise your seat through the roof, there's absolutely no>way to see the runway ahead while taxiing, landing, or the>ground while flying level. Here's my view from the 210 VC. Default eyepoint, zoomed out to 80%http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/23948.jpgFor all i know pretty perfect. ;-) Looking left there's indeed a fairly large portion of the top of the door/roof in view apart from the door window but i believe that's quite realistic. The door windows of the Centurion are much lower then the top of the windscreen.The only nitpick i have with this wonderful package concerns the soundsuite. I never flown in a real Cessna Centurion so i could very well be wrong but in my ears the engine sounds much too high pitched. I base this finding on the great Michelangelo Antonioni movie 'Zabriskie Point' of which, in my (eye)point of view, a Centurion is the real star ( and the pilot who flew it ! The shots of the aircraft buzzing the Buick with only a few feet between the roof of the car and the bottom of the aircraft's fuselage easily outclasses anything from Top Gun. Imho of course.. ;-) )The engine sound, both inside and out, which i believe to be genuine, differs from that of the Carenado 210 soundsuite like a Spitfire Merlin differs from that of a J-3 Continental...;-) But what do i know, maybe the 210 comes with different engines. Carenado surely modelled their gorgeous looking 210 from the real one so why not the soundsuite... Only strikes me why the sound of the Zabriskie Point Centurion differs so much from that of Carenado's.I would suggest you have another try with the default VC eyepoint but just zoom out a little. There's really nothing wrong with the VC view if you ask me. ( you *do* know about the 'landing view' 2D panel option, right ? If not, just click on the anti-glare panel's edge )best regards,Jan

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But what does the view look like if you pan to look ot the left window- just straight left pan without looking up/down? I agree the view out the front can be set up OK, as you show- but then its all wrong when you look left, your eyes are basically at roof level.Joel

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I agree about the sound too- very high pitched. The flight model seems realistic though, appropriately heavy and solid feeling.Your comment on the side view is where we actually agree, except that your in fact your eye is really not at all that high (ie at the top of the door) in the real plane, despite somewhat low set doors. I've sat in centurions so know that from experience, but you can also take a look at the pilots in spot view- the top of their heads are below where your eye is placed in the shots you show if looking left or right. The top of the door/window should be well above your siteline, never blocking your view.I agree you can get the front view set up OK, but then when you look left or right its quite wrong, not to mention that big chunk of seat you get to see you're sitting within.Best,Joel

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>But what does the view look like if you pan to look ot the>left window- just straight left pan without looking up/down? I>agree the view out the front can be set up OK, as you show->but then its all wrong when you look left, your eyes are>basically at roof level.>Come to think of it, the Dreamfleet Cardinal has the same problem when turning sideways. It's because the window is lower than other Cessna's due to the cantilever wing & the windows are shorter.edit---- Cardinal has more window space to see out on the left. Just adjust I suppose..L.Adamson

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Nature of the beast...Look at the external shots (the final two frames of four) in this set by skully (great work!!). The first external (attachment#3) shows the view from off the nose. Notice how the windshield goes all the way up to the mean chord line at the leading edge of the wing. Also notice how high the dash (and the cowling) is. Now, look at the top of the doors (and side windows)... they can only go as high as the bottom surface of the wing airfoil.http://forums.avsim.com/dcboard.php?az=sho...id=66090&page=3Maybe it's just me, but in all the high wing aircraft I've flown (numerous Cessnas, including a 210G, as well as Citabrias and Super Cubs) I recall having to "scrunch" my neck when I turn to scan out the side window nearest me. It's actually more of a lowering and tilting of the head slightly forward... both these together lower my eyepoint ever so slightly.To be able to comfortably see over the high dash, one must raise the eyepoint to an extent that the top of the side window seems too low. The real problem in the sim is that it's tough to do that "scrunch and tilt" move. In RL it's second nature.

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>Nature of the beast...>>Look at the external shots (the final two frames of four) in>this set by skully (great work!!). The first external>(attachment#3) shows the view from off the nose. Notice how>the windshield goes all the way up to the mean chord line at>the leading edge of the wing. Also notice how high the dash>(and the cowling) is. Now, look at the top of the doors (and>side windows)... they can only go as high as the bottom>surface of the wing airfoil.>>http://forums.avsim.com/dcboard.php?az=sho...id=66090&page=3>>Maybe it's just me, but in all the high wing aircraft I've>flown (numerous Cessnas, including a 210G, as well as>Citabrias and Super Cubs) I recall having to "scrunch" my neck>when I turn to scan out the side window nearest me. It's>actually more of a lowering and tilting of the head slightly>forward... both these together lower my eyepoint ever so>slightly.>>To be able to comfortably see over the high dash, one must>raise the eyepoint to an extent that the top of the side>window seems too low. The real problem in the sim is that>it's tough to do that "scrunch and tilt" move. In RL it's>second nature.>>I agree. All the Cessnas I have flown I have also had to lower and tilt my head to look out the side window.VC seems fine to me in the 210. :)

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What would make the view perfect would be to raise the upper sill of the side windows a couple of inches. That way you would keep the good view over the dash while improving the view to the sides.It doesn't sound like an elaborate fix. Can anyone attempt it?

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Doesnt Carenado have a support forum, i have lots of questions about the 210 but i cant find it, i cant believe they dont have one.OHN

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Hi,there is nothing wrong with Cessna 210 VC , it's modeled almost perfect and as in real Cessna you don't good visibility to sideways - that's the minus of high wing aircraft.You can define Vc spots in Active Camera and quickly change from one to other si it's like lowering your head ;-)regardsEricson

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Is anyone else seeing those chunks of the seat your sitting in when you look to the side? Don't think that's there in RL.... And if you take a look at the eyepoint of the pilots seated in the plane from spot view in those same images referred to above, I don't think their eyepoioint is being obstructed by the top of the door or as low in relation to the dash as the way its set from inside....

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I don't like the left/right viewpoints in VC either. Hard to clear for traffic when all you see is door and ground. It looks fine in 2D mode... what's wrong with the same for VC?

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That's an excellent point, if indeed the VC setup isn't wrong, why are the 2D cockpit side views normal?

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>What would make the view perfect would be to raise the upper>sill of the side windows a couple of inches. That way you>would keep the good view over the dash while improving the>view to the sides.>>It doesn't sound like an elaborate fix. Can anyone attempt>it?Only Carenado's aircraft model designer....No elaborate fix ? It will be much like asking Cessna itself to do the same, about complete redesign of the entire aircraft :-bla

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>Is anyone else seeing those chunks of the seat your sitting>in when you look to the side? Don't think that's there in>RL.... You have moved your eyepoint (ctrl/enter-backspace) too far back, having 'your head' inside the head rest... Better to move forward a bit and zoom out a tad more ( ctrl/- ) >And if you take a look at the eyepoint of the pilots seated in>the plane from spot view in those same images referred to>above, I don't think their eyepoioint is being obstructed by>the top of the door or as low in relation to the dash as the>way its set from inside....That's not really relevant, just the way the designer modelled the pilot figures. It has occured to me that many FS aircraft designers model their pilot figures too small,myself included. ( ask Freud why we do that...) We have nice scale drawings of aircraft to determine the exact measures of a model. Modelling a pilot figure is all done by 'dead reckoning' ....;-) What we need is a good photo of a real Centurion from the side with the pilot on board in normal position. I wouldn't be surprised if we would not be able to see if he has blond or dark hear or wearing a cap. ;-) Jan

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>That's an excellent point, if indeed the VC setup isn't>wrong, why are the 2D cockpit side views normal? You can set different eyepoints for 2D panel views and VC. The eyepoint for left/right view of the VC with the 2D panel is set lower then that of the default VC eyepoint. Set it the same for the VC itself and you wouldn't be able to look over the dashboard.Because we still don't know what the 'normal' left/right view in the real 210 is like maybe better to call the 2D cockpit side views 'convinient'. Jan

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Well, since I fly VC almost exclusively, this is a sore point for me and enough to make me wish I hadn't spent the money.I did receive an email response from Carenado stating that the views are a suggestion only and can be changed by the user although they didn't elaborate on how to accomplish it. It's really disturbing to be in VC and have to press SHFT+BSPC to lower the seat to look left or right. I agree that keeping it that way makes it impossible to see over the panel... so where does the fault lie? In a bad panel design?And yes, I get the floating parts of the seat when looking left and it has nothing to do with where I set my view. That is how it came 'out-of-the-box'.Good news is that the plane flies well... bad news is that I can't see clearly when flying it. I bought the plane for VFR not IFR so give me views not panel.

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This is a great pic, Ericson. It clearly shows that the top of the side window isn't but a few inches above the line of the top of the dash. It isn't a model problem... it's a high wing/high cowling and dash issue.Thanks,

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To the comment above about zooming in to get "out of the seat", that's not how the zoom function works. It zooms from a stationary eye position- but that does give me an idea for the fix here. I believe the head position can indeed be changed in the panel or aircraft.cfg file to move it closer to the panel (just as it can be shifted up/down or left/right. That should at least get the eyepoint in front of instead of inside the seat, I'll have to try it later and will post results Phil.As to shifting the side views of the VC upward, I do think the bitmaps caan be edited to do this without too much trouble, I may try it in Photoshop when I have some time and if succesful will make the new .bmp file available.Joel

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No, as far as I know they don't have a support forum. But they responeded quickly to the mails I sent to them in the last few days.VOlker :]

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The seat problem can be solved by moving the point of view a bit forward. To make a permanent change, edit your aircraft config:[Views]eyepoint=1.00,-0.90,2.40The first value is 0.50 normally, increasing it moves the view point forward a bit.It seems to me that Carenado modelled the 210 very accurately, so the problem with the visibility to the left is a problem of the original Cessna design. The lower point of view in the 2D side views is a quick fix to increase visibility, but it cannot work in the VC for obvious reasons.Just my 2c (EUR),VOlker :]

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>To the comment above about zooming in to get "out of the>seat", that's not how the zoom function works.Indeed,Joel, but i did not say 'zoom ' but 'move'. The latter is done with CTRL/ENTER and CTRL/BACKSPACE and *does* as promised, 'move' yourself forward or backward. Same as Numberpad 8 and 2 does when you use AC. 'Zoom' works with SHIFT/- and SHIFT/+ and works the same as f.i. a photocamera zoom lens, your field of view gets nearer or further away while you stay put.>As to shifting the side views of the VC upward, I do think the>bitmaps caan be edited to do this without too much trouble, I>may try it in Photoshop when I have some time and if succesful>will make the new .bmp file available.I'm afraid you are confusing a VC with the well known and probabely soon ushered out 2D panel cockpit views *bitmaps* . These are not used in the Centurion model. Like the external model of an aircraft, a VC is also a 3D model consisting of dozens of seperate textured parts. Sure you will be able to find the bitmap which contains the texture for the internal door and roof but it won't help you to 'move 'm up a bit', you'd still be looking at the internal door and roof *parts* at the same place,only wrongly textured now...

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