Short of Runway ILS Approach

[Bandselect 11]

I've generally had great success in manual landings or ILS approaches, however two recent flights ended up with the 744 aligned correctly with the runway, but landing short (impacting the grass or trees) on final (A/T was engaged). My insurance is going thru the roof! Any thoughts about what I have left out in my preps - have entered VREF for approach and set flaps appropriately.Thanks for any suggestions.Scott R

[Farlis 2,317]

I've generally had great success in manual landings or ILS approaches, however two recent flights ended up with the 744 aligned correctly with the runway, but landing short (impacting the grass or trees) on final (A/T was engaged). My insurance is going thru the roof! Any thoughts about what I have left out in my preps - have entered VREF for approach and set flaps appropriately.Thanks for any suggestions.Scott R

Which Airport and Runway did that happen on?

[Bandselect 11]

Which Airport and Runway did that happen on?

Approach to KDEN 7 and on the return trip KBWI 28.

[thefsxflyer 1]

Hmmm... I did the approach to KDEN to runway 7 and it seemed fine. Are you sure you have the right landing speed.Taylor Oldham

[royski 0]

I've generally had great success in manual landings or ILS approaches, however two recent flights ended up with the 744 aligned correctly with the runway, but landing short (impacting the grass or trees) on final (A/T was engaged). My insurance is going thru the roof! Any thoughts about what I have left out in my preps - have entered VREF for approach and set flaps appropriately.Thanks for any suggestions.Scott R

Hi Scott,Make sure that you VERIFY your approach speed and flap settings upon final. In your FMC they can be seen under INIT REF page.

[BlueStar 323]

I've generally had great success in manual landings or ILS approaches, however two recent flights ended up with the 744 aligned correctly with the runway, but landing short (impacting the grass or trees) on final (A/T was engaged). My insurance is going thru the roof! Any thoughts about what I have left out in my preps - have entered VREF for approach and set flaps appropriately.Thanks for any suggestions.Scott R

When flying manual approaches always fly half-a-ball high. Bill

[thefsxflyer 1]

One thing to try is VRef +5. I am not sure if this is a real world procedure but its what I do then at about 50 feet I go idle.Taylor Oldham

[BlueStar 323]

One thing to try is VRef +5. I am not sure if this is a real world procedure but its what I do then at about 50 feet I go idle.Taylor Oldham

On the -200 it's Vref to 40 feet (radar), engines to flight idle, increase deck angle 2 degrees and let ground effect do the rest. The -400 should be similar. :( Bill

[jon b 2,054]

Yes you should be maintaining Vref+5 kts, this is standard procedure or on windy days Vref + half the headwind up to a max of ref + 20. You can easily find Vref + 5 by simply putting the speed cursor on top of the word VREF on the speed tape and that should give you ref + 5.Its either the slow speed which is catching you out, most likley, or its the ILS in the simulator which is out of alignment?CheersJon B

[BlueStar 323]

Yes you should be maintaining Vref+5 kts, this is standard procedure or on windy days Vref + half the headwind up to a max of ref + 20. You can easily find Vref + 5 by simply putting the speed cursor on top of the word VREF on the speed tape and that should give you ref + 5.Its either the slow speed which is catching you out, most likley, or its the ILS in the simulator which is out of alignment?CheersJon B

With the autothrottles on the B744 you want to have Vref at the flair. When flying the old JT-8Ds, then you would use half the headwind + the guest with a limit at usually +20 depending on the aircraft and company. The autothrottles have gotten much better. :( Bill

[jon b 2,054]

Ah, reading scotts post again I hadn`t noticed he says he has the autothrottle still engaged for his manual landing, thats kind of making life hard for yourself with the pitch power coupling thing going off. Yes Bill you are right the + half the head wing + all the gust upto ref +20 is only if you have, or intend to disconnect the AT before landing.cheersJon

[Bandselect 11]

Ah, reading scotts post again I hadn`t noticed he says he has the autothrottle still engaged for his manual landing, thats kind of making life hard for yourself with the pitch power coupling thing going off. Yes Bill you are right the + half the head wing + all the gust upto ref +20 is only if you have, or intend to disconnect the AT before landing.cheersJon

Thanks all for the responses. Been busy with work so had been able to review until recently, but today thought about your comments on Vref for landing and with a computed T/D of 144 kts with 30 flaps, did a nice return to Denver in the new 747-8i. Keeping speeds not lower then 154 did the trick today. I will pay more attention to minimums for approach from here out. My insurance agent thanks you!Scott