Does ATC in real life do this?

[iainsmith 9]

I sometimes get a little irritated by RC ATC when it keeps giving me traffic advisories for traffic that is one or two flight levels above or below me. Do I really need to know this? Does this happen in real life or is it just an RC thing?Iain Smith

[jd 57]

I sometimes get a little irritated by RC ATC when it keeps giving me traffic advisories for traffic that is one or two flight levels above or below me. Do I really need to know this? Does this happen in real life or is it just an RC thing?Iain Smith

you would have to give me an example, and whether you are under rvsm rules or not. i doubt rc would be doing it willy-nilly. doug has a pretty critical ear. if you don't think it's right, duplicate the problem, send me a log, tell me what advisory shouoldn't be there, and i'll tell you why it was.also, are you or the ai climbing or descending?

[PeteP 2]

I sometimes get a little irritated by RC ATC when it keeps giving me traffic advisories for traffic that is one or two flight levels above or below me. Do I really need to know this? Does this happen in real life or is it just an RC thing?

Iain, I can understand your irritation and no, you really don't need to be given that sort of information on correctly separated aircraft - regardless of whether or not you're in RVSM airspace - in level flight or even climbing or descending to correctly separated levels provided that separation will not be lost at any stage. This applies in the real world on this side of the Pond for aircraft operating in regulated airspace where all traffic is known and notified and is in receipt of a control service (there are other types of service available from ATC, of course) which is what RC4 and earlier versions assume for the en-route stages of the flight which is when you'll get these messages. The only reason we would give a "traffic advisory" to properly separated aircraft would be if there was some specific advantage in doing so - otherwise it is just a waste of valuable RT time! It might, of course, be different in the States - and you have to remember, here, Radar Contact's American origins. Although it's made great strides towards internationalism (if I can put it that way) in versions 3 and 4, there's still an awful lot in it that's "pure Doug"! :( In the interest of balance, I should mention that what I said about not giving traffic information on properly separated traffic only applies in the real world to the type of regulated airspace I described and which RC assumes for its en-route phase. In other types of airspace (not simulated by RC4) where not all traffic may be known or notified or operating under a control service, it may well be appropriate to pass traffic information on separated traffic which, of course, may well not remain so. I can also mention that the phraseology used by RC4 differs from that used in the UK, for example, in as much as - for safety reasons - we never state the actual level of the traffic but use a relative description such as 1000ft above, 2000ft below and so on. Again, the US may well be different.It would, of course, be improper for me to reveal information that's been discussed in the private beta team forums but I don't think it'll be breaking any confidences to say that this difference in procedures and phraseology has been "flagged up" several times but it has to be allocated time and priority with all the other changes/improvements being considered so it may well be a while before it floats to the top. Will it be important enough to make it into V5? Only jd can answer that.To finish, just a little fun. If you can tell me exactly what the phrase "traffic ten to eleven o'clock" means, I'd really love to know! :( Pete

[iainsmith 9]

you would have to give me an example, and whether you are under rvsm rules or not. i doubt rc would be doing it willy-nilly. doug has a pretty critical ear. if you don't think it's right, duplicate the problem, send me a log, tell me what advisory shouoldn't be there, and i'll tell you why it was.also, are you or the ai climbing or descending?

To answer your last point first, jd, no the AI and me are all at cruise in level flight.An example, I am at FL350 and I will be advised about a/craft that are a few miles away but at FL370 or FL360 or FL330. Occasionally it will be about traffic that is say 10 or 12 miles away at the same level as me and that is understandable and obviously correct. But, sometimes, if there is a lot of traffic advisories about a/craft at different levels can be coming in non-stop for several minutes.I'll fly where it's busy and make a log if I can duplicate the problem. It doesn't happen on every flight.Iain Smith

[iainsmith 9]

Iain, I can understand your irritation and no, you really don't need to be given that sort of information on correctly separated aircraft - regardless of whether or not you're in RVSM airspace - in level flight or even climbing or descending to correctly separated levels provided that separation will not be lost at any stage. This applies in the real world on this side of the Pond for aircraft operating in regulated airspace where all traffic is known and notified and is in receipt of a control service (there are other types of service available from ATC, of course) which is what RC4 and earlier versions assume for the en-route stages of the flight which is when you'll get these messages. The only reason we would give a "traffic advisory" to properly separated aircraft would be if there was some specific advantage in doing so - otherwise it is just a waste of valuable RT time! It might, of course, be different in the States - and you have to remember, here, Radar Contact's American origins. Although it's made great strides towards internationalism (if I can put it that way) in versions 3 and 4, there's still an awful lot in it that's "pure Doug"! :( In the interest of balance, I should mention that what I said about not giving traffic information on properly separated traffic only applies in the real world to the type of regulated airspace I described and which RC assumes for its en-route phase. In other types of airspace (not simulated by RC4) where not all traffic may be known or notified or operating under a control service, it may well be appropriate to pass traffic information on separated traffic which, of course, may well not remain so. I can also mention that the phraseology used by RC4 differs from that used in the UK, for example, in as much as - for safety reasons - we never state the actual level of the traffic but use a relative description such as 1000ft above, 2000ft below and so on. Again, the US may well be different.It would, of course, be improper for me to reveal information that's been discussed in the private beta team forums but I don't think it'll be breaking any confidences to say that this difference in procedures and phraseology has been "flagged up" several times but it has to be allocated time and priority with all the other changes/improvements being considered so it may well be a while before it floats to the top. Will it be important enough to make it into V5? Only jd can answer that.To finish, just a little fun. If you can tell me exactly what the phrase "traffic ten to eleven o'clock" means, I'd really love to know! :( Pete

Thanks for your interesting reply Pete. Glad to know that there is some sense in what I'm saying. I assume that phrase you mention means the traffic will be out to my left front. Mind you I rarely see them - I just acknowledge anyway! :( Iain Smith

[ronzie 21]

What about the case where traffic is climbing or descending through your altitude that will cross your path. Also we've been talking high altitudes but we also have to consider lower altitudes that may not be totally controlled under VMC conditions but ATC might be following slower aircraft that could be VFR.Also consider that in FS the user aircraft and the AI aircraft are under separate authorities with poor synchronization. With the added load of single piloting advanced aircraft there are times I would find traffic advisories welcome to raise my awareness to a possible pending situation due to the limits of the FS world.

[Subs 0]

One other point that may be interesting is that while the AI seem (at least they are supposed to be) to be 1000 above or below , a loss of seperation often occurs as the AI do not change to standard pressure while on climb. I often see AI cruising at FL357 or FL312 - this leaves less than 1000ft vertical seperation between you and it sometimes, and perhaps RC is picking them as an advisory.Come to think of it, I'm not sure if jd has built in a buffer - an AI flying 999ft above you maybe picked up by RC as needing an advisory because it is technically less than 1000ft(?)Subs

[Dave Morgan 68]

To finish, just a little fun. If you can tell me exactly what the phrase "traffic ten to eleven o'clock" means, I'd really love to know!

Hmmm... I suppose (guess?) that would depend on which side you come from. There's at least one radio presenter on UK national radio who says 'ten before eleven'. Being Welsh, I have difficulty with words of more that one syllable but 'ten before...' seems to make more sense so I think it's just natural British perversity that makes us use the same expression for both contexts. Makes looking for other aircraft more fun too!D

[Dave Morgan 68]

To finish, just a little fun. If you can tell me exactly what the phrase "traffic ten to eleven o'clock" means, I'd really love to know!

Hmmm... I suppose (guess?) that would depend on which side you come from. There's at least one radio presenter on UK national radio who says 'ten before eleven'. Being Welsh, I have difficulty with words of more that one syllable but 'ten before...' seems to make more sense so I think it's just natural British perversity that makes us use the same expression for both contexts. Makes looking for other aircraft more fun too!Dp. s. how confusing would it be at a quarter to eleven?

[t_a_h 0]

Ten to eleven tells you that a passing A/C is crossing your path from 10 o clock in an angle towards 11 o clock. So your A/C nose is 12 o clock and you are looking left side, you're watching the AC comming slowly near your path. Would be a different scene if ATC would call you tellling AC <sign> 9 to 1 o clock. That would tell you that this other ac will be passing your path very soon.

Hmmm... I suppose (guess?) that would depend on which side you come from. There's at least one radio presenter on UK national radio who says 'ten before eleven'. Being Welsh, I have difficulty with words of more that one syllable but 'ten before...' seems to make more sense so I think it's just natural British perversity that makes us use the same expression for both contexts. Makes looking for other aircraft more fun too!D