Is the GREED or what ...?

[Guest]

I usually don't getinvolved with this type of post. I once bought(5 years ago) a CD that had about 150 planes on it, I think I actually found it in EBX computer store. I took it home and found out it was the same planes I had already downloaded for free on this site along with other sites. I had to laugh and ask myself, I'm really caught up in this hobby(which I have no problem with). YES! and we all are, if we weren't so hooked and excited there wouldn't be the forums, the anticipation, expectation, pc upgrades...think about it, a NEW COMPUTER FOR A FLIGHT SIM! Gimmie a break(I've been guilty of this) We never upgrade for quake, unreal tourney, splinter cell, sim city 4000, age of impires. but we will for MSFS, FLY, FU3. all which I own. We (me included heavely) are our worst enemy. Hers another twist of how powerfull our flight sim hobby is, there are alot of anti microsoft gamers. The big reason people don't like microsoft is beacause companies get bought by them, are the make an existing product better by the fact that they have mnoney, and we call it unfair competition. However not one simmer would have a problem doing there practices in the simming community. Buying out companies like PSS(which I own)active sky, FS NAV Mega scenery. No No, that's ok we say, and we would applaud it We don't care about those delevopers as long as our expectationns are met in this $54 sim. I register my products I buy from flight sim developers( PSS, active sky, etc.), and understand that any other freeware IS A GIFT!!, It never last forever, I didn't buy the sim for the freeware, I don't by hardware for the sim. We are a ficked group, I love you all, but we gotta look at how we have justified so many things for our simming hobby, and how our demands get worse. If you go to the forums of "The Sim", "Age of Impires", "Sim City", etc, there is no group for dedicated to a hobby as Fligh Simmers. But there is also no other program quite as advanced as this product. I have loads of freeware and payware that might not make it to this flight sim and thats ok, if the programs that were once free, now payware, the good news is FS2004 is not so dependednt as before on the other addin programs to make it more enjoyable, I haven't even had a chance to try my PSS 777 or 747, but I like my active Sky program with the free upgrade to FS2004, If there is a fee to upgrade my PSS777/747 I'll more than be glade to pay it. If was once free and its now payware and I like it(because I'm a hobbiest...I'LL BUY IT...PERIOD!!). We're grown men and some kids , lets make responsible decisions..

[Guest]

Why is it that SO many freeware authors are SUDDENLY going payware for FS2004?! I've been discussing this with other flight simmers, and they agree! I consulted a group of NON-flight simmers, and they think you are ALL being screwed over.I always assumed that people created things for a hobby because they wanted it for THEMSELVES, rather than wanting to make money out of it! It's no longer a hobby when you are trying to EXPLOIT others in the hobby - it's a greed-driven business!The amount of people who will throw money at something that's normally freeware ... incredible! You are being HAD! Your addons are WORTHLESS after a few years ... I quote a FAMOUS gauge creator: STOP THE COMMERCIAL POLLUTION OF THIS HOBBY!

[Guest]

Why is it that SO many freeware authors are SUDDENLY going payware for FS2004?! I've been discussing this with other flight simmers, and they agree! I consulted a group of NON-flight simmers, and they think you are ALL being screwed over.I always assumed that people created things for a hobby because they wanted it for THEMSELVES, rather than wanting to make money out of it! It's no longer a hobby when you are trying to EXPLOIT others in the hobby - it's a greed-driven business!The amount of people who will throw money at something that's normally freeware ... incredible! You are being HAD! Your addons are WORTHLESS after a few years ... I quote a FAMOUS gauge creator: STOP THE COMMERCIAL POLLUTION OF THIS HOBBY!

[E 0]

Let's all face it... it's only greed if it's something we want (although the drug analogy above was not that far off, as addiction does play into it heavily).

[Guest]

Oh yeah .... the "add-on" that has taken the market hostage recently .... you've been had AGAIN! It's been timed to perfection ... and the author is going to make more money than the addon developers! Thousands will buy it, and this is rapidly becoming a lucrative market to SCREW some gullibles :-lolMystery aircraft and panel authors appear, and release freeware for a LITTLE WHILE ... they use you as beta testers, and then go payware ... you're being had again and again! :-lol

[Guest]

Hey Brother I agree with your observation!!!Good thing I still control my wallet and credit card...AC2004... 15 Bucks for a fly by.... I don't think so.Pls don't beat me up for wanting it for free. I got enough share and payware to have an opinion on the subject.

[Guest Ian Ritchie]

Oh, so you guys don't want clever addons like AC and FSUIPC at all, freeware or payware?

[Arklight1 140]

Personally, I have NO problem paying for good quality add-ons.I also don't have a problem with freeware groups switching ot payware if they feel the need and/or desire too. It's thier projects, they can do whatever they want, I'm not obligated to buy any of them. If I decide to then it was my choice.If somebody wants to go payware I say more power to them.I admit I have seem some payware that I believe should be freeware but ultimately it isn't my choice so I choose just to ignore those products.

[bob.bernstein 0]

the payware isn't the new fashion, its the old fashion. The idea of getting some software without haveing to pay is the new fashion. Before the internet, no one would imagine it possible to get an addon for free. We paid for everything, the idea that we could get something for nothing never crossed our minds.Since the internet came to be, some of us began to feel good about sharing our knowledge and the tools started to be distributed for free, and the results started to be distributed for free, and in that way we all taught each other lots...ok, that was cool...and guess what? Way back when, when I was first learning the ropes, I had to pay for a graphics based design program for scenery (ASD). My mentor at the time was one of the best freeware designers around, Justin Tyme. I saw that products for money still had a role, even in this "new world".Justin decided to go payware (fsgenesis) somewhere around the fs2000 era, can't remember for sure. His loss to us freeware guys was felt, but we carried on. My creations for fs98 remind me of much of the new freeware designers just starting out today, much of my work now is received as Justin's was during fs98. (oh, and by the way, now graphical design tools have become FREE...LOL)Nothing new happening today...you're just feeling disappointed to have some changes happening in who you got used to enjoying as freeware top dogs. Can you recognize I felt that way years ago when Justin went payware.Its all a continuom....always new folks starting, always folks reaching the point that their offering is justly payware, always fans of the freeware being disappointed. No big deal here, we're all human and we struggle with change.But remember, no one owes you squat, if you get any freeware, you're way ahead of where simmers were during fs3.0Also, consider if you have raised your standards too high for new freeware authors to get your notice. Is that fair...is it even reasonable for folks to declare "freeware is doomed...etc.." when the fact is the libraries bulge with new offerings each day? Is it possible that all you need to do to stop your fears and worries is to alter your perspective and open your mind to different freeware?Best,Bob Bernstein

[Guest Finnflyer]

And when people complain about every Jill and Jack going payware the tiresome standard response from certain people is:You don't have to pay if you don't want it, so you expect people to work for free, blaaa, blaaa, blaaaaaaaaa, blaaaaaaaa.Look at Linux and Kde, Gnome, MySQL, X, Linux Kernel, MOzilla, etc. etc. I could go on for ever. Every one of these softwares are more complicated and have taken more man hours and resources than any of the FS addons. They are ALL FREE and GPL. Some people who code them get paid for it, most people don't. They do it because they like to code, believe in FREE opensource software, and because they fix bugs in software they use themselves.We are imho taken advantage to a certain degree. The people making certain addons do not believe in free or opensource software. The all mighty dollar is taking over. Some people say there is nothing wrong with that, I say there is nothing wrong with that, BUT it shows what kind of people they really are. If you don't want to continue developing something for free, how about you release the source code and let other people continue it instead of charging for it.We need a little more of that 60's hippy magic. Not everything has to be about time value of money, money, getting paid for your time, money, money and finally money.

[Guest]

Maybe because it now takes longer than 5 minutes to put together something decent and if you do release it you're going to be flamed for months by people who think the doohicky should be located a pixel further to the right (or the the left, both arguments will be made).If you then say you're calling it quits you're flamed again for not being man (or woman) enough to stand the heat of criticism.Some authors have gotten death threats because of such idiotic things...At the present the production of a QUALITY addon aircraft requires several months work for at least one (more likely 2) 3D artists, one or more graphics artists, a top FDE programmer, and one or more gauge programmers.That's FULLTIME months.Include a project leader who writes documentation and does PR, and you have 6 people working for 2-3 months fulltime.Say they don't want to give up their jobs and hobbies, and they can work about 2 hours a day on it. That's about a quarter of the time they could when making it a job...So now it suddenly takes that same team a year to produce that product.Guess what, that's about the time a highend payware addon spends in production (many of those people work 14-16 hours a day, not 8, which accounts for them having a faster release cycle).And then I've not talked about the tools needed.You need to purchase highly detailed 3D drawings, high resolution photos, possibly real airtime and simulator time in the aircraft to be modelled.Include travel time.Include software you need (Photoshop? $600+, 3DSMax $1500 or so (GMax is maybe not enough for the work you want to do), another computer to test stuff on? $3000, Drawings come in Autocad format and you need that? $2500 or more, C++ compiler? $1000). It gets terribly expensive.It's NOT the authors that have gotten greedy, it's the USERS!It's you, all of you!YOU DEMAND (not ask, DEMAND in very loud voices) these investments in time and resources and refuse to give even a simple thankyou in return.Instead you nitpick religiously and in often foul language about every slightest imperfection, calling the author names and even making threats against their persons.Lesser men (and women) would quit in disgust, some might consider suicide because of the disgrace.Some of them seek a means by which they WILL receive some compensation for their efforts, and going commercial is about the only way open to them.Yes, it's not the authors killing the addon scene (if such is happening), it's the consumers who are demanding ever more and giving ever less in return.

[Guest edrutl]

Well stated Bob. I never understood this divine right some people think they have for freeware. The relative cost of these addons to what they add to the hobby are HUGE.And regarding "freeware is doomed",I've been frequenting AVSIM every day for 5 years. I remember when a "huge" day was 10 uploads. Now there are more files in the library uploaded per week than anyone could keep up with. I remember the orginal Project Freeware 737 release that had (GASP!) flaps that moved. Not animated flaps mind you, but flaps that jerked into position. Our community was thankful and giddy. Now someone like Mel releases an incredible 777 - and some ingrates rip him to shreds.I have no problem with payware. Just like everything else, the buyer should do their research and spend wisely. Is there some cruddy payware out there - sure. But the free market has a great way of weeding out the crap. (there's a reason AMC motors went out of business). Besides, i seriously doubt payware developers are "getting rich."All freeware is a gift. We are lucky that many devlopers create high payware level quality addons as freeware. As a community we should be thankful for those who provide it and never take it for granted.ed

[Guest simpilot]

It seems that withing a week or so of this new version of FS coming out you are being hit with other items like FSUIPC ($22-23 US) FSMeteo ($18 US for previous customers) and Active Camera ($15 US which I never used to begin with) so, out of the box you might have the same amount invested as the actual platform ($54+) just to get what a lot of us probably had as a basic coming from FS2002. I scratch my head but what can you say. It is indeed a free enterprise society where we can spend or for that matter charge as we choose for this hobby of ours but, I have to tell you that it truly makes you think.Cheeres!Richard

[Arklight1 140]

>And when people complain about every Jill and Jack going>payware the tiresome standard response from certain people>is:>You don't have to pay if you don't want it, so you expect>people to work for free, blaaa, blaaa, blaaaaaaaaa,>blaaaaaaaa.>>Look at Linux and Kde, Gnome, MySQL, X, Linux Kernel, MOzilla,>etc. etc. I could go on for ever. Every one of these softwares>are more complicated and have taken more man hours and>resources than any of the FS addons. >They are ALL FREE and GPL. Some people who code them get paid>for it, most people don't. They do it because they like to>code, believe in FREE opensource software, and because they>fix bugs in software they use themselves.>>We are imho taken advantage to a certain degree. The people>making certain addons do not believe in free or opensource>software. >The all mighty dollar is taking over. Some people say there is>nothing wrong with that, I say there is nothing wrong with>that, BUT it shows what kind of people they really are. >If you don't want to continue developing something for free,>how about you release the source code and let other people>continue it instead of charging for it.>>We need a little more of that 60's hippy magic. Not everything>has to be about time value of money, money, getting paid for>your time, money, money and finally money.>>>>>What's wrong with wanting to get paid for something you love doing?

[bob.bernstein 0]

visit the library at AVSIM...much to choose from. If it doesn't include what you want, hitch up your pants and become the creator. You can't be taken advantage of, because you are in complete control of your willingness to be a contributor, and then be in control of what contributors choose to do. All that is needed for you to be able to return to complete happiness is to accept the current freeware as your preference. Do you realize that awesome design tools are FREE.....GMAX...FREE FSSC....FREE Airport for windows....FREEGee, free still seems alive and well.Hippy magic...lol....well, I was there, perhaps you were as well...you think that hippy magic meant you gave nothing and only received? not that I remember...folks that behaved like that were not well repected that I recall.Cheers,Bob Bernstein