I have the FS Genesis 38.2 terrain. Should I get the landclass too, or would it be a waste given the detail of the terrain? I'm considering the 76.4 terrain for Canada, but would it be that big a difference from the default terrain? And again, should I try to find a freeware landclass (there is no payware one, I don't think) as well? More than one question, I know, but thx for any input!Billg

Terrain mesh defines how the shape of the land reflects reality. Think of the chicken wire forms modelers use to create hills and valleys in HO model train layouts. That is what the terrain mesh does. The lower the value (38.2 meters versus 76.4) the more accurate the representation.Landclass simple tells MS what the land surface should look like, i.e., city, suburb, desert, forest, farm, etc. FSGenesis has a free beta version but the payware version is continually being updated with more accurate city and town data. Justin takes the input from his customers about certain areas like their home town and improves the landclass accordingly.Regarding the 76.4meter mesh for Canada -- definitely get it!!! You will not believe how beautiful British Columbia is once it is installed. The only reason it is not yet offered in 38.2 meters is the government is reluctant to release the more accurate data.Also, I'd strongly recommend signing up for the Galaxy member ship FSGenesis offers. It is Justin

Racartron, thx for the info. So the terrain determines the layouts of mountains and valleys etc. (that's why the mountains look so good with a terrain mesh) while the landclass determines what goes on the shapes. Sounds like you'd want a combination of the terrain and landclass if possible. It's more expensive to buy the terrain for the USA than the landclass. Obviously, the terrain must be harder and/or more expensive and/or more time consuming to make than the landclass. I would have thought it would be the other way around, but what do I know?You're right, the FS Genesis stuff is great. I have a few of the terrains, but I am thinking about a membership. Too cool....thx again,billg

This is a very good question. Thanks for posting it.I too have just purchased FS Genesis 38.2 for the Rockies, California and the Great Plains states. Maybe I got the cart before the cart on this one. Maybe I should have got the Land Class first, huh?Does the Terrain (mesh?) keep the towns, buildings, roads, utility poles etc? Or does it wipe them out and just displays the terrain?I guess I should have thought this one out a little more before purchasing.Regards,DonaldS

Donald, I bought the Rockies too. Just downloading a few more, hehe.No, it dosn't wipe out anything. In fact, it makes it better. The rivers that run through towns, towns that are in a valley, etc etc look fantastic. It really enhances the whole simulation. I'm just wondering if the landclass will enhance it that much more. I just flew from Santa Barbara with a Dash 8 at 4000 feet and the scenery was incredible. Now I want a bigger monitor, argh....billg

Get the Landclass. It is definitely a MUST BUY. When you first hear about it you think....Big whoop, but it makes a HUGE difference.I fly in the pacific northwest and the difference is HUGE.Microsoft (because they are global) painted their world in VERY broad strokes, so you often get huge patches of identical textures broken up by other huge patches of identical textures. With Landclass, the detail is much more granular. More and More very "small" towns are depicted to break up forest textures. Farmland has patches of woods going through them to. Cities have suburbs that are more accurately displayed.In some cases he doesn't get it 100% right, but that is a real small price to pay, when you are 5000 ft AGL flying around and you rarely see a repeating texture combination in the bunch.

--- With Landclass, the detail is much more granular. More and More very "small" towns are depicted to break up forest textures. Farmland has patches of woods going through them to. Cities have suburbs that are more accurately displayed.In some cases he doesn't get it 100% right, but that is a real small price to pay, when you are 5000 ft AGL flying around and you rarely see a repeating texture combination in the bunch.---That's the beauty of Justin's landclass product(the payware version). He refers to it as an on-going project. Users can request enhancements to their specific areas of interest and usually see the change in the next release. You are not going to see your house, but the general shape of the town will definitely be more accurate.It is especially satisfying to see those very small communities straddling the cross roads in some of the more rural areas of the USA. Now you can actually fly the VFR like the old timers, following the roads and rivers.If you are inclined, land on one of the roads, switch to a car or jeep and drive through the country side. This is a real hoot.Racartronit means something, but I just can't remember what

Hi:So what you're saying is, get the Land Class in addition to the Terrain. Or, just the Land Class alone? Or both?I am a new purchaser of the Regional terrains and I am simply amazed at the difference between the MS default scenery and Justin's terrain. I just flew a very familiar route that I fly often in the FS 2004 DC-3 and the difference that the terrain mesh makes in the area is just remarkable. I was able to negotiate easily a rather tricky course from Canon City, Colorado to Gunnison, Colorado because the terrain mesh clearly made the different elevations distinct, more visible and I could view the different elevations in a more proper perspective.I will buy his Land Class in a heartbeat if that's what you think I should do.It wasn't Justin's weekend though. because' starting with the download of the terrain right on through to installation, I kept going back to him for help. He explained everything in patient manner, even when I mis-read previous instructions he had given me. He will probably grind his teeth if he reads the fact that it is my intention to purchase Land Class.The man has the patience of Job.Regards,DonaldS

I belioeve the sim keeps track of sever level of detail mesh for the area in which you are flying. Depending on the terrain sliders setting it will attempt to display the more complex mesh in areas close to you. It will use the most complex mesh it can find for each area (if the slider is requesting it). So adding the highly complex mesh will let the sim display that level of detail. One problem, though, is that land features like roads and rivers may appear to be misplaced, especially in valleys (where you expect the river to be at the low point in the valley).Landclass is a series of tiles "draped" over the mesh to form "terrain". The sim is limited in the smalled tile it can use, so there is a limit to the granularity of the landclass. Note that there are actually a series of landclass tiles for each location, to provide for seasons (spring, summer, autumn, winter, hard winter). In addition, the number of different discrete landclass graphics has been much better for the US than Africa in particular. Finally, there is also waterclass as well. Not sure if Justin's data includes anything new for that.The main problem I had with addon mesh is that an entire airport scenery is flat, even though in real life it probably isn't. That tends not to be a problem with the MS default mesh, but can cause the appearance of cliffs if higher detail mesh is used. For example,I have the FS Genesis Hawaii 10 meter mesh/LC. Very nice, but some airports (PHHF, PHMK) display the cliffs. I live next to PHHF, and can see that the problem is that there are gulches very close to the runway which you don't see in the default mesh, but are clear with the FS Genesis included. In fact, one of the runways that is included in the default airport actually is in the bottom of a gulch (it was designed in WWII so that aircraft could be assembled in a secret underground factory and moved through a tunnel to this runway.) The fix would be to redo the airport scenery with an exclude for most of the default one allowing the "true" mesh to show once again.Knowing this I still prefer having the FS Genesis mesh/LC installed.scott s..

What actually racatron support - is not the best deal you can get out of the pot!!Fsgenesis mesh especially srtm is not better than any other srtm mesh available on the net as freeware or payware!!Fsgenesis prices are not the cheapest available these days!sorry racarton - is perhaps time you stop to lure unexperienced simmers belive the world is small.my advice - SIMMERS SHOP ON THE WEB FOR FREEWARE AND SHAREWARE - AND DO NOT GET STUCK WITH BAD ADVICE YOU GET AT THIS FORUM!!especially you racatron!!john

Thank you for trying to save the world for us John, and in such an articulate manner, too. However, I'm much more inclined to listen to advice from someone who is prepared to stand by what they say rather than from someone who creates an account (note the one post, on an account created today) solely for the purpose of generating spammish comments on an otherwise interesting thread. My advice to you is to take that grammar book out of it's dark hiding place and spend more time with it and less time roaming the boards. You'll find it easier to communicate those small thoughts of yours and you won't walk as funny. rgds,billg

Pretty harsh words from a first time poster. BTW, there is a huge difference in Mesh. Freeware and Payware. It has to do with the resolution that goes into it. Even if they both claim to be 38.2 meter mesh, does not mean they are the same. Alot of the freeware mesh is oversampled. Meaning they took lower resolution data and sampled it at the higher output. Here is a qutoe from a readme from one of the 'freeware' meshes"The resolution of these files is one arc-second, or 30m. These scenery files were generated from original USGS (United StatesGeological Survey) DEM data downloaded fromftp://edcftp.cr.usgs.gov/pub/data/DEM/250" So I went and looked at the data he used. Straight from the USGS site..."1-Degree DEMs correspond to the 3 arc-second (or 1:250,000-scale) USGS topographic map series, and are available for all of the contiguous U.S. and most of Alaska. They are expressed in geographic coordinates (latitude/longitude). Most are referenced to the World Geodetic Survey (WGS) system of 1972 (WGS72), but some are referenced to the WGS system of 1984 (WGS84). Grid spacing is 3 arc-seconds. Files are available in Native format and are distributed via FTP."Nice that he included the link to his data, that way the informed can know what junk they are getting. Yep...thats some good stuff there. You get what you pay for. And the data that Justin uses for his 38.2 you ask???"7.5-Minute DEMs correspond to the USGS 1:24,000- and 1:25,000-scale topographic quadrangle maps, and are available for all of the U.S. and its territories. They are cast to the Universal Transverse Mercator (UTM) projection system and are referenced to either the North American Datum (NAD) of 1927 (NAD27) or the NAD of 1983 (NAD83). Most files will have a grid spacing of 30 meters, but 10-meter grids are also available for some locations. The average file size of a 30-meter DEM is 1.1 megabytes and 9.9 megabytes for a 10-meter DEM. They are available in Native and Spatial Data Transfer Standard (SDTS) format. Native format is distributed on CD-ROM, DVD, 8-mm tape, and File Transfer Protocol (FTP). SDTS is distributed via FTP download."Actual 30 meter data. Plus the 10 meter data for the high res stuff like the Grand Caynon and Hawaii. Not some poor res data on steroids. So you keep getting your free stuff John. I am quite happy with what I have."sorry racarton - is perhaps time you stop to lure unexperienced simmers belive the world is small.my advice - SIMMERS SHOP ON THE WEB FOR FREEWARE AND SHAREWARE - AND DO NOT GET STUCK WITH BAD ADVICE YOU GET AT THIS FORUM!!Your right....Stop taking bad advice from some of the uninformed people on this forum. I presented my proof. Where is yours???For everyone else...check out my website for some pics of the mesh and landclass in action. Send me emails, ask any questions, download the freeware stuff from FSGenesis, post any questions or concerns there, and the actual author will help you anyway he can. Its the best support of any payware product I own. And all of the users will lend a hand to anyone wanting to get into it. It is the absolute best addon if you are a low and slow type of flyer. It will convert many of the Jet Setters to start flying the GA. :)Hope to hear from you all soon. I just built the website, so its not the best. Its my personal site, and not FSGenesis. Just wanted to do something on my own to help people see what they can get.

Thanks for the post, John. I, for one, look forward to hearing more from you.One problem with Membership programs is the fact that members have a financial interest in the success of the vendor. If the vendor goes out of business, their memberships are no longer of value. So product recommendations made by these Members should be taken with more than a grain of salt. Marketing material is often developed by people with little of no knowledge of the actual products, and many posts in these forums reflect this unfortunate fact.Many of us, not just inexperienced simmers, rely of these Forums for reliable, objective information. To the extent that the information is neither reliable nor objective, the value of the Forums themselves is diminished. Good screenshots comparisons offer an excellent introduction to the benefits of addon mesh, but these should only be the first step in deciding whether new mesh is right for anyone. These images provide valuable information about mesh in general, regardless of the actual source of the mesh. But be skeptical about any accompanying text concerning mesh, since few posting these images have ever actually constructed any mesh of their own. Interpretations of information read elsewhere are not always accurate.The next step, as you have pointed out, is to download free mesh from non-commercial and commercial sites as well as File Libraries such as AVSIM's and try some out on your own system. This will give you a good feeling for the pros and cons (yes, there are a few) of high resolution mesh. And you may find all the mesh you "need" this way. There is a lot of very good mesh available only as freeware. As well as some that is not very good at all, but even these samples can help inform us. Finally, if still interested (and I don't understand how anyone would not be), the curious should check out several vendor sites for more information about specific products for their area(s) of interest, pricing, construction techniques, ... The amount of information these sites provide, if any, may reflect the extent of their technical knowledge about mesh in general as well as their level of commitment to both quality mesh and to the folks who use/develop it.At this point it is probably appropriate for me to acknowledge my own personal interest (and "credentials") regarding this discussion:As a commercial mesh vendor, currently offering the largest selection of high resolution addon mesh for FS2002/FS2004 available on the internet, constructed from the largest amount of high resolution source data available to the general public for the Western Hemisphere, I am always pleased to see posts that accurately inform people about the benefits of adding enhanced terrain mesh to their sim. Well-informed visitors know (or can learn) how to identify quality mesh, and they become the most-satisfied customers. To that end, I believe my site also offers more accurate, objective information about mesh than any other source on the web. In the long run, the quality of products and services we enjoy depends on the public's understanding of what constitutes quality, and then supporting those who provide it. In business, politics, education, ...Stevewww.fs-traveler.com'... The Promethean spirit that animates scientific enquiry, that terrifying curiosity that inhabits the human soul, always proves stronger than the fear of knowledge that opposes it.' - Dylan Evans

"One problem with Membership programs is the fact that members have a financial interest in the success of the vendor. If the vendor goes out of business, their memberships are no longer of value. So product recommendations made by these Members should be taken with more than a grain of salt."Whoa there, Steve.I doubt that those who choose a memebership do so because of any desire to have a financial interest in a commercial endeavor. They bought a memebership simply because they believed it to be financially prudent for themselves over the long run. And while I agree that their recommendations may be biased, it is primarily because they are happy with what they have purchased (whether that purchase was made with you or Justin... or anyone else for that matter).Regards,

It saved me over $75 dollars to get a membership for what I wanted. I paid $100. Downloaded 4 gigs of terrain and got 15 CD mailed to me within 3 days of ordering. Alot of the same things are not Available on FS-traveler, so its not fair to compare prices...But if I was to get everything there, it would cost me 115.97. Not getting the 90m US because there is no use to duplicate. Am I also going to recieve product CD's for this? If you ever make any updates, do I get them? Will you send me another CD? Am I able to download updated Landclass from you? For free? Forever? No. Simple as that.I talk about FSGenesis because it is an incredible product. And the support is by far the best of any payware sight. And if you Steve would have offered the same type of program, then it is very possible that you would have my money instead of Justin. I spent one week before I purchased. Read all I could, reviews about both products, weighed what both companies had to offer. And I choose the company that in my opinion offered me the better options. So...Sure I agree, take my recommendation with a grain of salt. I believe everyone should do there own research. I made my site 5 days ago. I know its not perfect. Some people work for a living and do this as a hobby! I made it because everyone kept asking for good screenshots of Mesh and Landclass in action. An easy place to go. Maybe screenshots are not the best answer, I guess that is because that is what appears on your screen. So I guess seeing is not really believing. Not one screenshot on FS-traveler...So I guess Steve does not want you to see what you are buying...But taking his word as the owner, the one that would trully profit from who buys what. FSGenesis is not my product...I am an end user just like everyone else here. I just tell like it is...Either believe me or not. But do your research. That is the key. Too many people buy payware products not knowing what it is, or what they want out of it.Steve...you picked this fight...not me. Never did I say a bad word about you, or your product...Why start with me? I have always said that both products would definetly enhance your simulator enjoyment. But if we are going to comapare apples to apples...My choice is easy. And I am pretty sure everyone elses will be when they do there research.To everyone else reading this. I did not mean to sound bitter. But I thought these forums were for sharing each others experiences. How many posts do you see "Does anyone have XXX and how do you like it?" Was that not the original question here? What is the difference between Land Class and Terrain. Is that not what was answered? I appologize for taking offense to what has been said. John10 obviously was just a troll. Look at what it has caused, for such a simple question to start out with. As a wise man once said... "And that is all I got to say about that..." (Forrest Gump)