Can't hit the TDZ

[Chris Willis BAW976 0]

Hi all,Ok so my first post in the "queen's" Forum.I am a long time user of the LDS 767 and until recently was Chief Pilot for a well known VA that operated the 767. I am having an issue with landing the 747-400 with my new VA, I use topcat for the load control and takeoff and landing data.Normally I use flaps 20 take off and flap 25 for landing, I check the Vref30 speed with TOPCAT and also with the FMC and for my landing weights these tally within 2 knts.My problem is that when I take out the autopilot on approach I alwas find myself floating over the TDZ and not touching down in it, this causes many go-arounds.Are there any tips for landing that I am missing, for my T7 flights and my 767 flights, I have never had the problem with not hitting the TDZ.Also though I notice that the spool up times on the RB211's on the Queen can be quite long, and that might be a cause of a float.Finally I have completed some flap 30 autolands to get the perspective from the VC and also to watch the power application, and I can't see what I am doing wrong. I know it is pilot error, but need some peer help to correct it.Regards,Chris WillisCVHK Line Pilot

[1kris007 0]

Well i actually used to have this problem, and i realized that on short final at about 300 feet i was not concentrating enough, and simply never held my decent rate. That's where it matters the most to aim at the TDZ. And just keep aiming at it until 60-30ft before the flare. Cross the threshold at 50 feet, and just hold the decent. Flaps 25 approaches take you in faster, I would try manually flying a flap 30 landing.

[Cuddly1956 1]

Same here but I found what works for me is to keep the descent rate, usually 700 ft/min, then at 50 ft press F1 and then flare. Most of the time it will get me down at TDZ.Not perfect every time lol as I still tend to land off centreline lol. I try to land with flaps 30 every time as well, that way it is consistent.The AOA DVD helped in landings as I was an ILSer only once but now I find it more fun to land manually.John Ellison

[G-CIVA 62]

Chris,Some bits & bobs from the other side of the world.Personally, & IMHO, use the PMDG Load Manager to set the ZFW...you can never be sure that a 3rd party programme has correcly fed data to the .cfg file.Landing Flap SelectionAt the VA we both know so well the normal landing flap selection is FLAP 25 unless RWY length/& or limiting conditions exisit in which case FLAP 30 should be used. Other factors that may influence landing flap selection include CAT3/AUTOLAND conditions where FLAP 30 should be used.So FLAP 25 unless the RWY is short, or you are landing in limiting conditions...somewhere like RWY05R at Mexico City where perhaps FLAP 30 would be preferential due to the high density altitude & resultant higher speeds across the ground...a slower approach using FLAP 30 may bring benefits including less reliance on the autobrake absorbing all that energy. If the weather is particularly gusty & bumpy FLAP 30 should be considered. Other conditions may include a steeper than normal ILS glidepath i.e. greater than 3 degrees...such as Maritius and Prestwick landing westerly. It goes without saying that in the freighter you would be normally landing at fairly heavy weights & that FLAP 30 is normally the better option wherever you are.The target approach speed should be VREF+5, VREF+10 or VREF+15 dependent on weather conditions & exceptionally VREF+20 should be used if windshear conditions exist. The SPEED BUG should be set to the TARGET SPEED.So in normal conditions VREF+5 kts should suffice.DO NOT make large or abrupt power changes as this may destabilise the approach. If the speed on a limiting RWY is in excess of VREF+15kts over the threshold the a GO-AROUND should be immediately initiated. Maintain the correct approach path using the ILS information (if available) and note that any external visual aids other than the PAPI should be ignored below 300ft AAL. DO NOT allow the SPD to decrease below VREF+5 kts as the drag induced at this stage will require a large increase in power. The aircraft should be aligned with the RWY extended centreline by no later than 300ft AAL. If this is not possible a GO-AROUND should be immediately intitiated. Only minor lateral corrections should be carried out below this height.LandingOn landing, to ensure a touchdown not more than 300m past the threshold the pilots' aiming point should be 600m past the threshold. At 100ft RA the nose of the aircraft should be very near the threshold, if the threshold has been passed then the aircraft is high. At 50ft RA the aircraft should be over the threshold, if the threshold is still in sight then the aircraft is low and a GO-AROUND should be immediately initiated. When the threshold passes under the aircraft nose and is out of sight the visual sighting point should be switched to the far end of the runway whilst maintaing a constant descent rate and airspeed. This will assist in maintaining a constant pitch attitude during the flare...this is the key to a smooth touchdown.Increase the pitch attitude by 2 degress as 30ft RA is passed, this will slow the rate of descent...the Radio Altimeter will be the cue if operational. Slowly reduce the Thrust Levers to idle aiming to have them at the Idle Stops at touchdown adjusting pitch to maintain the desired descent rate. Fly the aircraft onto the runway.Do not allow the aircraft to float and watch the pitch attitude...at 11.5 degrees nose up the rear of the fuselage WILL make contact with the runway in a wings level condition.FLY the nosewheel on to the runway and without delay. DO NOT attempt to hold the nosewheel off the runway as this will affect the braking capability of the aircraft. Track the runway centreline with the rudder pedals and ensure the SPEED BRAKE has deployed automatically...if not manually deploy it. In cross wind conditions maintain the into-wind aileron during the deceleration.Reverse ThrustMost airlines have three types of Reverse Thrust Policies:Idle Reverse - The normal seting when RWY and/or conditions are not limiting...also at noise sensitive ARPTs a certain times (early morning at SYD etc).Partial Reverse - Used when it is appropriate to reduce the energey absorbtion by the brakes - e.g 'Hot and High ARPTs'Full Reverse - Used when limiting conditions exists and down to 70kts or when a safe stop is assured. After touchdown the reversers should be selected to the interlock - i.e 'REV' in yellow is displayed above the engine tapes on the upper EICAS,then the briefed selection should be set.That pretty much it...pitch attitude and the smooth commencement of the flare with smooth and simletaneous thrust reduction to idle commenced at 30ft RA are the key.FLY the aircraft onto the runway!Practice, practice and more practice until the correct control inputs become instinctive is the key.Hope this helps & hope you are well mate.

[Matt2218 4]

Steve, that's a fantastic post, thanks for sharing the information.

[Chris Willis BAW976 0]

Mr Bell sir,Most informative post. I'm well thank you, but got worn down with rw commitments, so I had a look at life, and had to lose the hobby for a bit. Thanks for the info, now if o can pick your brains. What should be the target epr on app? Most of the time, I read that this should be about 1.20 but I suspect It is lower.Written in the "the wing" VHHHChris.Btw anyone want to do a sound set for fs2crew 747. One proviso, we will need to do two sets 1. British Airways2. Cathay Pacific

[G-CIVA 62]

Mr Bell sir,Most informative post. I'm well thank you, but got worn down with rw commitments, so I had a look at life, and had to lose the hobby for a bit. Thanks for the info, now if o can pick your brains. What should be the target epr on app? Most of the time, I read that this should be about 1.20 but I suspect It is lower.Written in the "the wing" VHHHChris.Btw anyone want to do a sound set for fs2crew 747. One proviso, we will need to do two sets 1. British Airways2. Cathay Pacific

Chris,The figure of 1.10-1.20 EPR is a good setting to stablise the engines on the take off roll.Around 1.20-1.30 (60-65% N1) should see you right on the app.There are some pretty good sets of sound files already available in the usual places...they can be a bit of a frame hitter on lower spec PCs...the default Roller sounds are actually quite nice...a background growl at high thrust settings is drowned out by the rushing air over the fuselage during crz.

[Guest 413X3]

Why not flaps 30? It's not like you're spending real fuel and need to save money. Flaps 30 you go slower which makes it easier to grease a nice landing.

[G-CIVA 62]

Why not flaps 30? It's not like you're spending real fuel and need to save money. Flaps 30 you go slower which makes it easier to grease a nice landing.

With practice consistently good landings are possible with Flap 25...'greasers' can be bad for your health :( Reduced flap/idle reverse landings have economic (especially with carbon brakes) and noise/environmental advantages. To not use them on a long, dry runway seems overly prescriptive to me.At our VA we strive to mimic the SOPs of our RW counterparts. Its about the level of realism & how far you want to take it within the bounds of the flight simulation world.

[Paul_Smith 92]

Mr Bell sir,Most informative post. I'm well thank you, but got worn down with rw commitments, so I had a look at life, and had to lose the hobby for a bit. Thanks for the info, now if o can pick your brains. What should be the target epr on app? Most of the time, I read that this should be about 1.20 but I suspect It is lower.Written in the "the wing" VHHHChris.Btw anyone want to do a sound set for fs2crew 747. One proviso, we will need to do two sets 1. British Airways2. Cathay Pacific

You shouldn't really be looking at the EPR (except possibly as a cross check) as you should be adjusting pitch and power as necessary to match GS and VREF requirements. If you are on track and the EPR is not where you expect it, then that is an indication of a problem. If you are not on track, it does not matter what the EPR is.