Hi guysJust a quick one, once or twice whilst using RC my route (generated by Vroute) has run out before I've reached the destination. Do I have to have a waypoint at the arrival end, other than the airport itself? When this happens I still don't know my arrival runway so the FMC bings with 'end of route' and I end up flying into the unknown. Any deviation from my heading gets me yelled at as presumably RC is expecting me to fly direct to the airport from the last waypoint. Are there any hard and fast rules about number of waypoints needed and how far from the end of the route they need to be? TaBen

Hi guysJust a quick one, once or twice whilst using RC my route (generated by Vroute) has run out before I've reached the destination. Do I have to have a waypoint at the arrival end, other than the airport itself? When this happens I still don't know my arrival runway so the FMC bings with 'end of route' and I end up flying into the unknown. Any deviation from my heading gets me yelled at as presumably RC is expecting me to fly direct to the airport from the last waypoint. Are there any hard and fast rules about number of waypoints needed and how far from the end of the route they need to be? TaBen

you should always have a checkpoint as close to the arrival airport as possible. preferably a vor (this is for better handling holdings).

The free version of VRoute I believe does not expand SIDs and STARs into individual waypoints as far as I know. In the case of STARs that could leave you with a last waypoint very far from the airport which will be a transition point at the beginning of the STAR.Do I have the description of VRoute correct regarding free and paid subscription versions?For US plans try the real world flightaware.com filed plans especially the enroute ones. Here's a KMSP-KLGA plan;COULT3 DLL BAE J34 WOOST J146 ETG MIP3which shows the DP (SID) and STAR. If you click the decode link you get this:KMSP COULT3 DLL BAE J34 WOOST J146 ETG MIP3 KLGAName Type Latitude LongitudeKMSP Origin Airport 44.8819567 -93.2217656COULT Reporting Point 44.5566389 -92.2084444COULT Reporting Point 44.5566389 -92.2084444LMFRY Reporting Point 44.3707222 -91.8504722DLL VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 43.5508611 -89.7635833BAE VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 43.1168522 -88.2843464ADALE Reporting Point 42.8530111 -86.0109917GRR VOR-DME (NAVAID) 42.7867169 -85.4970708HASTE Reporting Point 42.6709528 -85.1673611ALPHE Reporting Point 42.4359000 -84.5099167CRL VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 42.0480250 -83.4575825WOOST Reporting Point 41.6957833 -82.7891861WOOST Reporting Point 41.6957833 -82.7891861CXR VOR-DME (NAVAID) 41.5169311 -81.1631842TEESY Reporting Point 41.4211056 -80.1118194MIGET Reporting Point 41.2945639 -78.8643028WEVEL Reporting Point 41.2503194 -78.4580750ETG VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 41.2149497 -78.1427564ETG VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 41.2149444 -78.1427500 ARTCC Boundary Crossing 41.1875000 -77.8978611SWISS Reporting Point 41.1285278 -77.3871667WATSO Reporting Point 41.0461944 -76.8333611MIP VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 41.0234167 -76.6653056MARRC Reporting Point 40.8955556 -76.1360833BILEY Reporting Point 40.7995833 -75.7464722VIBES Reporting Point 40.7632222 -75.6005278FJC VOR-TAC (NAVAID) 40.7266944 -75.4547500LIZZI Reporting Point 40.6656667 -75.1488056BEUTY Reporting Point 40.5691944 -75.0114722HARLM Reporting Point 40.4907500 -74.7490833DREMS Reporting Point 40.4278889 -74.5407500APPLE Reporting Point 40.5561389 -74.0622500TICKL Reporting Point 40.5680833 -74.0521389PROUD Reporting Point 40.6298056 -73.9997500KLGA Destination Airport 40.7772500 -73.8726111and from flightaware airport info IFR plates here is the link to the MIP3 STAR:http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/LGA/STAR/MILTON+THREE/pdfwhere you can see the transition point ETG where the STAR is entered. The STAR ends at PROUD 11 nm from KLGA. Unless you specify an IAP in RC to do your own nav RC will start vectoring you at about DREMS which is 38 nm out leg distance. It is important if you use FMC expanded database waypoints that those waypoints be included in the plan sent to RC so it be synchronized to comply with RC monitoring.To get active plans between airports in flightaware.com you can Track Flight - Don't Know Flight Number and enter the departure and arrival ICAO. It will come up with a list of flights. Click one, preferably enroute, and a plan page will open. If you choose a flight that has arrived particularly with regional airlines you may get a different filed plan as they can use frequently the same flight number. The problem with flightaware plans is by themselves there is no export feature and you will find many current waypoints not in your FS older database. FS plans exported from planners contain coordinates for all waypoints so the FS planner database does not matter.I use the payware FSBuild flight planner which has an AIRAC update subscription available and paste the flightaware route into its route window. Since it exports into FS and many FMC formats expanding procedure waypoints or can al;low you to use the FMC stored terminal procedure database updated via the same subscription fee (all at navigraph.com) it provides a viable choice. VRoute can also do the same in the paid version by expanding SID and STAR waypoint in exporting to FS and some FMCs I believe. In this case you would not use the stored FMC terminal procedure database.Hope this helps explain why your last waypoint may be so far from your destination.I should mention that some STARS terminate thirty to forty miles from destination and in their description state expect vectoring to . . . That can be normal where the final waypoint in a STAR is not the transition into the final approach as illustrated the IAP chart which may or may not start at a STAR termination.

Thanks for the info Ron. I have the paid version and as far as I can see the plans do drop you off onto the transition point onto the STAR in most cases. I tried a few flights this evening, from Belfast to Edinburgh (a very short hop in a 737) and it all went well, as did my next trip from Manchester to Heathrow, as the last waypoints Vroute gave me were very close in to the airport. I then tried Birmingham to Amsterdam which left me hanging from waypoint REDFA, a point in the North Sea about halfway between the UK and Dutch coastlines. As you suggested, this is where in the real world pilots head off onto the various STAR transitions into Schipol. I plugged the SPL VOR into the FMC (being the closest VOR to the field, on it in fact) which whilst not entirely realistic did the trick. RC then gave me vectors south of the airport and back round onto RWY 27. I prefer to let RC vector me as a real world pilot friend of mine tells me that in most radar environments you're vectored much of the time from the airway and that following the STAR exactly onto the localizer almost never happens. He also said that SIDs are much the same; you'll make the initial turn only to get vectored by ATC. It would be great in a future version of RC to have some of this real world unpredictably, the controllers over-riding your SID at random points and issuing you direct to instructions and similarly cutting off your STAR to issue vectors. That would be very cool.

Hi Ben,I also use the Premium vRoute and it doesn't include SID and STAR waypoints (only the entry / exit one) so I employ a different strategy. I use the Project Magenta software and I can program a waypoint 40 miles from the arrival airport and set the required altitude / FL. This is useful when my last waypoint is further out as it allows me to stay on course for the airport until I'm handed over to APP. If you can do that with your CDU it might help. Many airports don't have a VOR close by.Recently I've been requesting IAP Approach when switched to APP as it allows me to fly the actual approach to the landing runway rather than the generic downwind, base and approach legs RC issues. If your CDU has STARs programmed into it this is another option you could consider. By 40 miles out you should have heard ATIS and can select your landing runway. If you subscribe to Navigraph data you may be able to keep your CDU data up to date.Regarding including a VOR as close as possible to the arrival airport in your plan this may be realistic in other parts of the world but not in much of European airspace where holds are at intersections such as DAYNE and MIRSI for Manchester. I wouldn't like to include MCT as a hold for EGCC. I suspect I would cause a riot with other traffic.I'm hoping I can persuade JD to look at how holding is implemented in v5. It hasn't changed in a long time.

Using an VOR on the airport as a waypoint is not recommended for departures or in most cases arrivals. For departures it can cause a waypoint to be out of line severely with the departure procedure and you would miss the waypoint credit in RC since it would be improbable you would pass close enough to it. For arrival where terrain forces a teardrop approach to lose altitude and reverse direction an on field VOR would be the entry point. RC4 is not equipped to handle that so you would declare an IAP and do your own navigation with RC connecting to you again on final. RC just follows the standard pattern entries illustrated in the manual.For charts in the UK you can get free access from:http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php.htmland in the right window select AIP charts and then the aerodrome of your choice.You can register at no cost on:http://ead-website.ead-it.com/publicuser/public/pu/login.jspwhich will give you access to many charts in the European Union. If they ask you why just say pilot training. After logging in select enter applications. Then select PAMS LIGHT (AIP). Do a search setting up the jurisdiction, authority, then charts, then part (Enroute or Airport), then activate the search. Scroll through the pages (you can estimate the page to go to since they are alphabetical by ICAO code), then select the .pdf and let it download to your PC. At that point you can print it but I also recommend saving it for your PC.These are real world.I've attached screen shots for a search for Schipol EHAM to show you how to go about it once your registration is activated.Log in to Eurocontrol every ninety days to keep it active.You really do need a flight planner to get round the use of the obsolete waypoint database in FS if you are going to use real world charts. I suggest FSBuild 2.4 which I explained in the thread I referred to. Some here prefer Flight Sim Commander. FSBuild is strictly a route and fuel estimator (it connects to Active Sky winds aloft reports but be aware right now some people experience FSX problems using it with RC if using the ASE version. No problems reported with FS9.)If you are interested in FSBuild I'll post a tip sheet I made in using it with FMCs and RC.

Thanks for the info Ray. Also I do have FS Build Ron, but I've never much bothered with it. I normally just plug the vroute plan into the FMC and do my own thing in terms of the STARS and SIDs according to the runways in use, as they do in the real thing. I've just come back to Radar Contact after a while and now need something a bit cleverer than vroute's rather abbreviated plans. If you could post your tips for FS Build and Radar Contact that would be really handy.Thanks guys.

Thanks for the info Ray. Also I do have FS Build Ron, but I've never much bothered with it. I normally just plug the vroute plan into the FMC and do my own thing in terms of the STARS and SIDs according to the runways in use, as they do in the real thing. I've just come back to Radar Contact after a while and now need something a bit cleverer than vroute's rather abbreviated plans. If you could post your tips for FS Build and Radar Contact that would be really handy.Thanks guys.

Hi Ben,I'm curious about your reference to vRoute's abbreviated plans. Do you mean this:- DVR L9 KONAN UL607 UTABA UM738 AMTEL UL995 BOLThat is all the info the CDU needs to enter all this...waypoint.1=EGTT, DVR, , DVR, V, N51* 9.75', E1* 21.55', +000000.00, waypoint.2=EGTT, DVR10, , DVR10, I, N51* 8.98', E1* 37.52', +000000.00, L9waypoint.3=EBBU, KONAN, , KONAN, I, N51* 7.85', E2* 0.00', +000000.00, L9waypoint.4=EBBU, KOK, , KOK, V, N51* 5.68', E2* 39.10', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.5=EBBU, FERDI, , FERDI, I, N50* 54.76', E3* 38.22', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.6=EBBU, BUPAL, , BUPAL, I, N50* 43.38', E4* 36.07', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.7=EBBU, REMBA, , REMBA, I, N50* 39.73', E4* 54.85', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.8=EBBU, SPI, , SPI, V, N50* 30.88', E5* 37.40', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.9=EBBU, PELIX, , PELIX, I, N50* 29.82', E5* 45.75', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.10=EBBU, MATUG, , MATUG, I, N50* 25.00', E6* 22.18', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.11=EDFF, AMASI, , AMASI, I, N50* 14.42', E7* 36.37', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.12=EDFF, UBIDU, , UBIDU, I, N50* 4.40', E7* 54.38', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.13=EDFF, NONKO, , NONKO, I, N49* 47.70', E8* 23.97', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.14=EDFF, RIDSU, , RIDSU, I, N49* 44.93', E8* 28.80', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.15=EDFF, ABUKA, , ABUKA, I, N49* 27.92', E8* 40.75', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.16=EDFF, SUNEG, , SUNEG, I, N49* 11.92', E8* 51.85', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.17=EDFF, TGO, , TGO, V, N48* 37.10', E9* 15.55', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.18=EDFF, UTABA, , UTABA, I, N48* 15.30', E9* 27.70', +000000.00, UL607waypoint.19=EDMM, ESISO, , ESISO, I, N47* 47.57', E9* 51.58', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.20=EDMM, OSDOV, , OSDOV, I, N47* 26.40', E10* 11.00', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.21=EDMM, MADEB, , MADEB, I, N47* 19.47', E10* 17.33', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.22=LOVV, TIRUL, , TIRUL, I, N47* 3.43', E10* 31.72', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.23=LOVV, NATAG, , NATAG, I, N46* 51.48', E10* 37.13', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.24=LIMM, LORLO, , LORLO, I, N46* 43.45', E10* 40.73', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.25=LIMM, RENTA, , RENTA, I, N46* 18.33', E10* 51.82', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.26=LIMM, ADOSA, , ADOSA, I, N45* 38.67', E11* 1.58', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.27=LIMM, OSTEG, , OSTEG, I, N45* 10.72', E11* 8.33', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.28=LIMM, KREVA, , KREVA, I, N44* 46.47', E11* 14.10', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.29=LIMM, BOA, , BOA, V, N44* 32.22', E11* 17.44', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.30=LIMM, VALEN, , VALEN, I, N43* 56.23', E11* 31.98', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.31=LIRR, RESPU, , RESPU, I, N43* 41.02', E11* 33.60', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.32=LIRR, AMTEL, , AMTEL, I, N43* 13.22', E11* 36.52', +000000.00, UM738waypoint.33=LIRR, BOL, , BOL, V, N42* 37.11', E12* 2.92', +000000.00, UL995How are you entering waypoints into your CDU? If you're importing a saved PLN file I suppose that would work but CDUs generally allow you to enter it as supplied by vRoute (above). I can input that route in 5 entries whereas entering each waypoint involves 33 entries.

Here are the FSB tips. I quickly revised them since FSBuild now uses AIRAC data from Navigraph. It is a free upgrade from 2.3 to 2.4 and it includes the 13th cycle of 2010. There are still mods to it and you can the latest revision link from the FSBuild forum. The last release build .10 is available from your account in simmarket.com order history (no charge).FSB tips:1. Include this line in FSbuild.cfg:NAVCHKDUPDIST=100This decreases the chance of using the wrong duplicate named local (to the airport) waypiont from a nearby airport. Local waypoint names are not exclusive. It decreases the database search when it is named in the route to within a 100 nm radius of your airport. You will find these in terminal procedures such as "D" number something within a SID or STAR to define a merge or turning point.2. When doing a Auto Generate (Route) be sure the SR (Stored Route) button next to it is "up" that is not highlighted. Auto Generate will use a stored route if found by default and most are out of date with old waypoints and terminal procedures. Having Stored Routes off forces it to search a path with fresh data. (Now off by default in version 2.4.)**REVISED 12/31/10** 3. Starting soon in 2011 FS Build database updates will be exclusively released through navigraph.com. It should be part of the FMC data line. For those not familiar with Navigraph each subscription term (cycle) includes multiple format downloads at no additional cost. This is very convenient for aligning FMC/navigation equipment databases with the flightplanner so among other things ATC data and your nav equipment data should match as you send a plan to ATC and then load it including terminal procedures into your FMC. The 2.4 upgrade includes the thirteenth cycle of 2010.4. Where an airport uses specific runways for different terminal procedures select the runway using an estimate based on weather and if the runway fits your aircraft requirements before doing the Auto Generate. This helps select the correct SID and STAR for the runway and direction of departure and arrival.5. After the Auto Generate and/or first build look at the map created to spot any obvious errors. In the route grid look for any sudden non-sensible changes in direction or extremely long legs not in the correct direction creating a zig-zag in the map. (See item 6 following to correct).6. Be aware there is an option you can set for each session titled "Build Route from Grid Table". It does not stick between sessions. This lets you build from an edited route grid that you may have modified without recreating the table with the same error on your next build/export. For example you might wish to drop an errant waypoint when proofing the map and rebuilding.7. Sometimes the name of a procedure (SID/STAR) does not match the name exactly in a published route and the procedure will not expand into its plan waypoints in the grid table. You can click on the arrow in the SID/STAR box to see what close name is in the FSB database. (Another reason to keep up with AIRACS.) For example KMSP has a current real such as this one:http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KMSP/DP/WAUKON+TWObut the FSB database only has UKN2. (It does have UKN3 now with the latest available AIRAC update). If so in the route line just change UKN3 to UKN2 so it will expand. Here's a real route from flightaware.com for KMSP to KMDW:KMSP UKN3 DBQ CVA MOTIF3 KMDWthat can be pasted into the FSB route line. If UKN3 or MOTIF3 does not expand in the route grid to individual way points look in the upper part of FSB in the airport section dropping down the SID or STAR box to get the available version and substitute that label in the route line and rebuild. Note that the SID and STAR dropdowns may follow the chosen runway in certain areas.8. Sometimes it takes a second build to get the map to move and/or magnify. The mouse scroll wheel lets you magnify. Just click on the portion of the map you want to center on and scroll to magnify.9. If you click on a line in the route grid table to highlight it, the waypoint on the map will turn red. This is useful for finding errant waypoints that cause an error in the path. That line can then be edited or deleted and a rebuild accomplished with the build option to build from the route grid table.10. If you are running a weather program such as active sky, first build the route in FSB exporting to FS9 using an anticipated cruise altitude and specify the nearest aircraft profile. In AS get the weather you wish to use. (I always get the weather for the zulu time of the departure in FS since time of day affects weather characteristics). Import the plan into AS via the new route button, check the altitude and choose an appropriate true airspeed in knots (this is your no wind ground speed). Process the route. When it is finished click the button to print a hard copy of all. Use this AS navlog for METAR data at both ends and winds aloft and temperature aloft that can be used for FMC data. (You'll also get your estimated average wind at your specified altitude - handy for FMC data.) Leave AS running. Now go back to FSB and your chosen aircraft profile. Enter the surface temperature from your departure METAR, then estimated total taxi time, hold time, and extra time (sometimes called discretionary fuel). Now turn on again your FS9 export along with any FMC export you might use. Rebuild and you'll see the messages regarding the export completion. On the route selection on the left which brings up your route window select the navlog tab and click the .pdf to save the navlog in a file or the print button to get a hard copy so you can easily reference the estimated fuel and other data. This estimated fuel has now taken into account your winds aloft data - no need to enter it in FSB. Now that you have the hard copy and exported your route, you can first optionally save the plan by selecting flightplan window, then clicking the category tab, then select user category. Now click file, save from the menu bar. The name you might want to embellish. Click Save Route To User Flight Plans. For another session, you can recall thisworking plan and just build.11. If you are using an aircraft with nav equipment that has its own terminal data procedures in its nav equipment (think FMC) you might wish to use step 6 above to take out the waypoints of the terminal procedures keeping just the transition points and build and export with just them. This easily in most cases lets you select the SID and STAR assigned by ATC onyour nav equipment by providing a clean legs list in your nav equipment. If you need ATC to monitor the waypoints of the terminal procedure than just export all. To keep ATC and you nav equipment in sync, you might consider importing the full plan into your nav equipment and not using your nav equipment procedure database.This is kind of long but through experience I've described some tricks I've used watching out for any pitfalls.

Thanks for the info Ray. Also I do have FS Build Ron, but I've never much bothered with it. I normally just plug the vroute plan into the FMC and do my own thing in terms of the STARS and SIDs according to the runways in use, as they do in the real thing. I've just come back to Radar Contact after a while and now need something a bit cleverer than vroute's rather abbreviated plans. If you could post your tips for FS Build and Radar Contact that would be really handy.Thanks guys.