I noticed w/some glee that Abacus was offering something called "commuter pilot".... Thought it'd be a great way to get a collection of payware aircraft in this genre...When I went to Abacus' page to look further, I was surprised and disappointed to see that some of the aircraft are actually already available as freeware...., including Jon Murchinson's work and Francisco's ATR....I am sure Abacus had the permission of these authors to package their work, but I am also curious as to why someone would want to buy something they can already DL for free? Is this the old spin on "new" vs. "new and improved"?-John

Every new Abacus announcement irritates me more and more.I've ranted here before about how disappointing "Sky Ranch" was, so no need to re-beat that dead horse. A while back a friend gave me his (unused) "Whirlybirds" product. It's a combination of some helicopters and some scenery additions. As a helicopter pilot I'm always anxious for commercial, helo-oriented FS releases (they are few and far between!) but, was too gun-shy based on the Ranch thing to actually pony up the bucks... So anyway, after my friend gave it to me, and what do I see but what appears to be a quite well-known *freeware* Eurocopter Dauphin in the package, by a talanted fellow named Antti (I don't recall his last name off-hand)! (Several versions can be downloaded right here at Avsim.)Now, the Dauphin has a great panel, great animations, great externals - but most uniquely, a stunning autopilot module. This is very unusual for FS helicopters - at least, one that is this sophisticated - auto-hover, hover hold, etc. I believe it's the only one that tries to emulate a real-world helicopter a/p. Unfortunately though, it does not work in FS2004. So, I thought, "well maybe Abacus contracted Antti to update the autopilot module - that alone would make the package worthwhile". So like a dope I installed the package, and - who wouldda thunk it - same exact product, and with NO MENTION in the readme that some of the Dauphin's functions don't function in FS2004. The Dauphin readme is lifted as-was from the version that Antti posted back in FS2002 days.As far as I know the rest of the aircraft in the package are "original works" and not lifted from the freeware domain. Ironically, their quality is lower than the Dauphin, in terms of external and internal visuals. (Lots of stock FS instruments too.) The one other helicopter that I was interested in, the Robinson R44, is barely average as compared to some of the amazing freeware things that are being done these days, and the rest of the lot are similar. I will admit to having become spoiled (spoilt?) by some of the freeware and payware aircraft that we have available to us. But this blatant re-packaging of a freeware offering, AND with no mention that it's only partially functional in '04, once again drives me to post a rant about their stuff.IMO Abacus takes advantage of folks that are not aware of resources like Avsim, and shovels their product out the door hoping those poor souls can be parted with their $29.95. It's hard to believe they do it with a straight face.Dave Blevins

Actually, the ATR is not available for 2004 as freeware. A patched up version was uploaded to flight sim sites without the author's permission - much to his annoyance. So annoyed, in fact, he took the work he was doing on CoF compatibilty and decided to seek a commercial publisher. With regards to the rest of the Abacus stuff, same old same old in my opinion. Trailing edge graphics, poor panels (the Kitana looks likd FS98) etc. Also, I can do short deck landings in CFS 2 on the Enterprise or the Yorktown. I'll pass.

"Actually, the ATR is not available for 2004 as freeware."I didn't have to DL the patched version--I just made the edits myself to get it to work in FS2004... Point is the aircraft isn't "new", just new and "improved".... I wouldn't pay for the package for that reason alone, although I am not knocking the ATR--it's still one of the best aircraft I've seen...I certainly love FSDS 2, but Abacus has never released an aircraft package up to current standards that I'd buy. As someone else notes, I suspect they take advantage of those who simply don't know about what a great resource sites like Avsim are...

I don't suspect they take advantage of anyone. There are simply different demands in the market with different expectations as far as product features go. To each his own.Hope this helps!

You make a good point. But, I maintain that wanton repackaging of freely available items and presenting it as a commercial product, and not adequately documenting shortcomings (aka lack of complete FS2004 compatibility), are (at least) causes for us to not give them our money. I made that mistake once; it won't happen again. it helped a little bit,dB.

"I don't suspect they take advantage of anyone. There are simply different demands in the market with different expectations as far as product features go. To each his own."I'm well familiar with marketing principles, having studied them and practiced them in my profession for the past two dozen years.... And some marketing programs do take advantage of the customer--I've seen enough idiots laugh about it in board meetings. At least I feel I've never supported selling my consumers short, which is why I bowed out of that part of the I.T. industry several years back.... My point is simmers should be considered a bit smarter by the vendors that serve them. I question the integrity of any marketing scheme which sells a free, "improved", or formerly free but old product. Abacus sells a great design program (IMHO), but since the days of FS2000 it has seemed completely lost in terms of what the demands and expectations concerning product features are in our community. I almost feel like it has chosen the path of other vendors I dare not mention--marketing to the lowest common denominator. It's a pity, since Jon, Francisco and Dave Eckert are all world-class designers and can create brand new product for Abacus......-John

I like to think positive and assume, just like Jean Luc, that Abacus just targets a different kind of people. Most of the sim pilots gathered here at AVSIM and the other big FS sites aim for a high degree of realism and complexity. But as the Microsoft flightsim team has often said, we are a minority.Most of the people who buy FS9 or the previous versions just use it out of the box, without any additional planes, scenery, reduced textures, modified AI trafic, ... . When I take a look at my local retailer's FS addon selection, I'd say at least 50% of it is pure rubbish that can in now way compete with current high class products. An occasional PSS A320 or DF 737 is the exception to the rule. But the "typical" FS user might be happy with a boxed addon that offers a simple install routine and a few simple planes that he can fly without learning anything, and on an old computer.I certainly won't buy any of this stuff, but there are a lot of other things I would never buy, but obviously sell very well ;)Just my 2c (EUR),VOlker :]

"But as the Microsoft flightsim team has often said, we are a minority."Just a niggle here for future reference... I have had many conversations with the MS FS Team, and I have never heard any of them refer to those simmers on the net as a "minority". I have heard it from numerous pontificates in the community, including myself, but never from an MS'er. The truth is, we are a minority market segment, but a vocal and visible one AND more importantly, one that is growing day by day. MS learns from this community everyday, and that is invaluable to the continuing improvement of the sim and the hobby. A sentiment that is stated by the MS Team, repeatedly. :)

>"But as the Microsoft flightsim team has often said, we are a>minority.">>Just a niggle here for future reference... I have had many>conversations with the MS FS Team, and I have never heard any>of them refer to those simmers on the net as a "minority". I>have heard it from numerous pontificates in the community,>including myself, but never from an MS'er. The truth is, we>are a minority market segment, but a vocal and visible>one AND more importantly, one that is growing day by day. MS>learns from this community everyday, and that is invaluable to>the continuing improvement of the sim and the hobby. A>sentiment that is stated by the MS Team, repeatedly. :)oh.don't ya forget that!next time your neighbours look at you with "that(you know...golly Brenda,that man plays with aircraft...on his COMPUTER!)" look,YOU keep your head up,knowing that the MSFS design team knows AND appreciates you!knowing this i can sleep again tonight ;-)

Tom, out of curiousity, since you state that you have/have access to the MSFS team, is there no way that you, a man with these kinds of 'connections" could verify that the team is aware and / or doing something about (or not!) the problems that many of the simmers seem to go on about here on your forum?? Things such as the CTDs and JimmiG's autogen problem, these things constantly come up and from what I have read many simmers have gotten to the point that the sim is unusable, so they say. Just seems like a legitimate problem and it would be comforting to know that the company we help support is even aware of our troubles (and cares) Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://mysite.verizon.net/res052cd/mybannercva1.jpgCalVirAir International VACougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviation[link:www.cgrmthelos.com]Cougar Mountain Helicopters

Dear Michael,Fix missing and messy looking bridges? Fix Autogen problems? Fix severe/abrupt winds aloft changes when using real world weather? Before they release the next version of FS? Hmmm, EA/Dice just released another patch for Battlefield 1942. The umpteenth patch in the what, 16 months since that game was released?I'll be shocked :-eek if MS releases one patch for FS2004 before it releases the next version. I think I can figure the answer to your question out on my own. They care about making a new version. It'll be pretty good like FS2004 is. But it'll most likely have some bugs that won't get fixed, unless they deem one of the bugs to be a showstopper. We have to vote with our wallets when it comes to MS. Either we put up with a few glaring problems in MSFS because we like it enough to do so, or we don't buy it because we don't like the bugs and know they don't care to make patches to fix them.Yes, they care to develop a new version and I think they take some pride in doing it. Are they aware of our troubles? Yeah, I'll bet they are. But they don't care about no stinkin' patches.Sorry if my post seems like a little bit of a rant. But hey, do I like FS0024? Yes. Do I think they should fix a few glaring and obvious problems? Yes. I own Battlefield 1942. Just got done playing it. Will I buy from EA/Dice again? You bet! Will I buy the next version of MSFS? Hmmm, I will probably wait until about 5 months after it's been out instead of pre-purchasing it like I did this last time around so I can hear about, and then and decide if I want to live with, the problems that will come with it.Regards,Jim

Jim, while I acknowledge many have problems, I don't have a problem with the bridges, seems to be fine everywhere I fly (seen a few in screens though) and I have never experienced the winds deal, as far as the ones I mentioned, enough simmers have gone on about them, so that there must be a problem there (or you wouldn't be upset ;-) )While your theory makes sense, again, it is just speculation which is why I asked this of someone that can give a legit answer so we can all just either accept it, fly and wait for the next version or go sit in a corner and keep complaining. Gets old to come to the forum and every other post is about some problem, either a CTD or about JimmiGs bug he likes to keep bringing up.Regards, MichaelKDFWhttp://mysite.verizon.net/res052cd/mybannercva1.jpgCalVirAir International VACougar Mountain Helicopters & Aviation[link:www.cgrmthelos.com]Cougar Mountain Helicopters

Some of the bug/issues that manifest themselves on certain PC's are more than likely triggered by a specific combination/setup within the PC. I can honestly say that I've not experienced the problems that people speak of....sure, I've had a few CTD's, but very rare and totally random, and nothing to do with the changing of seasons or whatever. The last was caused by two add-ons banging heads...remove one, and the CTD didn't reoccur! Other issues that people speak of, perhaps I've just not noticed them because they are not 'too' bad in my system?As for companies like Abacus, well yeah, I've seen some of their stuff and it does generally look very amatuerish in comparrison to much of the brilliant freeware available here, and a few 'select' sites. However, and here's the rub, many people do not have access to these fantastic libraries because they don't have internet access for whatever reason....so, Abacus, if they do manage to license (hopefuly) a couple of the better freeware items, by selling them, are at least making these things availble to those folks, albeit in a very limited fashion, and perhaps they should make it clear as to their sources, and include whatever updates are available to ensure full compatibility. If they don't, shame on them; they will learn eventually though as their consumer base becomes disolusioned by their substandard offerings. Fortunaqtely there is enough good payware availble off the shelf to prevent the consumer from miss-thinking that Abacus's shortcomings are actualy problems with FS200X and thuis not bothering with the sim in future.So, in short, I guess that Abacus do actualy meet a need for flight-simmers, sadly, they target the less informed, and/or those without internet, and more sadly...they don't do it very well!!!

Its amazing....Imagine that I'm a member of the FS dev. team:I browse through the avsim forums and I see a long thread with people complaining about some bridges. I think....we may have a little problem here.....maybe we should release a small patch. Then I see a whole bunch of people saying that its no big deal, just live with it.......oh!!...fine then..since some people think its ok, why should we waste time releasing a patch?Next, I see this long thread about people having CTDs. I think...this is definitely a show stopper. We should definitely release a patch for this one. Then I see this other thread about how my product is like the second comming....and these people stiffing their noses up at the ones that are getting the CTDs. I think....hey, not everyone is getting it...must be some hardware problem...no sense wasting time releasing a patch.So I just go back to working on the next version. If I mess up some of the things that worked perfectly, its no big deal....when a few complain, I can always rely on my troop of butt kissers to knock down the complainers.Ahh...yes....that timezone bug that's been present for the last three versions....maybe I should finally fix that for FS10. Nah....why should I....only a couple people complain....and I have my people here to tell them to quit complaining and fly. Nah...sorry but the time zone bug shall remain a bug in FS10!!!End FS dev. team member rant.Moral of the story.....as long as there isn't one voice in the community demanding a patch.....as long as some wants it, while others think everything is just heaven, why should MS even bother? Think about what we're up against....the 90% that do not know about AVSIM and do not use addons are certainly not crying out for a patch....which leaves the 10% of use here to cry out for one...of this 10% about half thinks everything is just perfect....so that's 5% crying out about patches.....5% of 2,000,000...do the math. Every other game that I've ever bought has had a patch released within a month to three months of initial release. Even games that release "sequels" like the "sequels" that FS releases every two years.Personally, I can't really see MS being justified in charging anything more than $30 USD for FS10....we know what its gonna be....the scenery engine will be the same, it will still have the autogen bugs...there will be even more missing bridges.And..the wind shift problem will not be fixed....yes.....it will not be fixed....remember, this problem also exists in FS2002....because FSUIPC smoothed it, some people have forgotten about it. But don't forget....it was there as a bug. And this bug is still there in FS9. And it will continue to wreak havoc in future versions...just like the "insignificant" time zone bug.About Abacus.....I've read enough about them on this forum to steer clear.