About a week ago I heard (on their forums) that FSD would add the Reality Xp Jet Line 2 displays in it's Navajo, I thought that was great and decided to go forward with the purchase based on the fact that I could use the JL 2 displays with it.A few days later FSD released the patch which fixed a couple of minor problems and integrated the JL2, I was really happy about this and was very thankful to FSD.When I loaded up the Navajo with the JL2 I was really dissapointed by what I saw. I run my 17" screen at 1024x768 pixels, it's not the best resolution my computer can handle but if I turn up the resolution I get a refresh rate of 60 hz which gives me a headache after 1 minute.The displays were totally unreadable, the airspeed tape as well as the headings on the compass rose, the two most usefull readouts on the displays were rendered unusalble. Here is a real size (1024x768) screenshot I took of the 2D panel http://pages.infinit.net/flyguy/2dpanel.jpgNow the displays integration in the VC is even more dissapointing. Even if they are a bit more readable (for the 20/20 crowd) they just pasted both JL2 on the VC but kept the original gauges outline which make the JL2 look like this http://pages.infinit.net/flyguy/vcpanel.jpgAfter seeing that I decided to contact FSD. In the page long Email I described my dissapointement, then went on and suggested what could be done to improve the room for both JL2 on the panel and then I added that I hope FSD was going to patch that and if not I would have to ask them for a refund because the product was flawed.FSD's website claims that most Email are replied to within 24 hours. Well 3 days later I still haven't heard from them. From this point I decided to take the matter in my own hands and played with the panel.cfg and the main 2D bitmap to try and make the displays look bigger by deleting the gauges that are implemented by the JL2 displays such as the VOR 2, ADF, radar altimeter and Autopilot annunciator.My tweak was well underway when I noticed someone had posted a similar concern on FSD forum about the JL2 integration. I replied to his post saying that I had the same problem and I was working on a fix for it, I also described how I was planning to do it. After about 10 minutes I went back on their forums to see if anyone had replied and much to my amazement I found that my post had been deleted and that I was now BANNED from their forum.This somewhat irritated me and I once again wrote them an Email. I will admit that my Email was very blunt and not sugar coated at all. I basically said that I was outraged and that I was demamnding the full refund of my product and that if my Email was met with the deaf ear as was my previous Email I would contact my credit card company and stop the payment on the Navajo and I would also contact the Consumer Protection Office of my Province.My Email was promptly answered my Mr Steve Small in a page long Email. I will not post the email because this goes against proper courteous rules but I will summarize what Mr Small had to say:1) Mr Small commented that only 2 to 3% of their costumers actually use Reality XP displays and that they integrated the displays because that 2 or 3% had "demanded" it.2) Mr Small accused me of hacking FSD original artwork simply because I modified my panel layout.3) Mr Small accuse me of blackmailing him because I asked for a refund.4) Then Mr Small again accused me of hacking and butchering the copyrighted panel and he then proceeded to say that I posted that I would be redistributing the panel. I don't know where Mr Small got that idea from but I never said such a thing in my post. I admit that after completing my tweak I would have probably asked FSD's permission to share my tweak with the other customer.In my reply I stated that the reason why I bought the product was because of the promised JL2 integration. I said that since no warning or minimum required screen size/resolution was stated in their website at the time of my purchase I had no way of knowing that the displays would be unreadable on my panel and that was why I was demanding a full refund. I then confronted him with the hacking accusations saying that as long as my tweak remains on my computer only I can do whatever modifications I please.At the writting of this post I still haven't heard back from Mr Small except a post on FSD forum where he said the following about me.Quote: "I recommend that individual get himself a phone box, configure it with JL2 displays and go fly it. " UnquoteToday I also saw a memo about the Navajo and the JL2 displays where Mr Dickens states that the panel was not meant for the JL2 and that they would not fix the look of the displays in both the 2D and the VC. The memo also states as far as i can recall that FSD does not support the JL2 displays in the Navajo. Now, they are the designers of the panel but yet they refute support for it!In the previous paragraph I said "as far as I recall" because I cannot get to their forums to verify the proprer wording because it seems that they have banned my IP from their main website. I get a "403 Forbidden You don't have permission to access / on this server."Well talk about customer support, as far as I know I am still a paying customer and they refuse me any kind of support whatsoever, very touchy Mr Small!This was way over the top, and I have now decided to take actions. I contacted my credit card company and had a lenghty conversation with them, they agreed to start and inverstigation on the case. I also phoned the Consumer Protection Office and asked them to send me the required form to fill up a formal complain.To summarize this whole situation I would say that Mr Small should really take a close look at how he treats his customers and at how he provide them with customer support. I wish my outrage would only be directed at Mr Small but unfortunatelly this mess stained the whole FSD company for me. I am sure the other members of the team make up for Mr Small lack of any customer friendly support but unfortunatelly (un-)luck had it that Mr Small picked my case.Seeing as I have now been banned of the whole FSD website and that I cannot get any support of any kind for the product I paid. For example: asking for a key to go beyond the 8 instalation limit if I ever suffer computer problems. I will ask again for the refund since this now goes against the laws of the province I live in. I would like to add that my fiance has now been working as an apprentice in a law firm for over 6 months and I am sure she and her colleages would be glad to pick up this case if my refund query is once again met with a negative answer.To close this post I would like to add an advice to everyone who is considering or has deal with FSD. Buyer beware, I say. FSD aircraft are very nice but be very careful who you talk to in case you need support from them.All the best,RadarbeamPS to the Avsim staff. This post was made to expose my situation to the FS community. I don't think I made any breach in the forum rules but if I did please contact me and I will edit the post accordingly. Thank you for letting me voice my opinion so that this never happen again to someone else.

Second PS: I wish I could make the image links clickable instead of being displayed here but I have no Idea how to do that. Tom, Ken, help please :)Nevermind I found it, just please remove the < at the end of each links.Radarbeam

UPDATETo Mr Small credit, he just sent me an email proposing that I install a file that will erases the Navajo ffrom my computer and then send out that information to him. He will then process to the refund. Mr Small believes I am doing this to get the Navajo for free.I indicated that I agreed to that solution but I warned him that if that file ever contains a malicous codes that harm, monitor or send out informations irrevelant to the uninstallation I would start legal procedures.Radarbeam

Buyer be aware.Jean-Luc from Reality -XP supports JL2 (it is his product) so why don't you address this problem to him on his forum ?If your purchase of this aircraft was contingent upon the proper integration with JL2 then you should have been asking the right questions from the beginning. I am afraid you are not the first (or last) customer in the simulation community who purchased something without having all the facts and now feel cheated. As to the refund - this very is hard to get not only from FSD but from other vendors too (and I doubt you have any legal recourse here). Flight1 is an absolute shining exception here - not to mention best and extremely cordial support. Leave your hard earned simulation $$ with Flight1 and get treatment you deserve !Michael J.

Just to be clear, the Jet Line 2 doesn't come with the Navajo...it's an add-on, or am I mistaken? I would try Reality XP's forum...A proper panel config file will likely show up there eventually. Looking at your pics though, I'd say it's going to take some major surgery :)DannyCYVR

Danny,Yes, Reality XP is an a totally seperate addon from the Navajo. It's not made by FSD. FSD just implement reality XP great products on their aircraft.Michael,When I bought the Navajo no warning was put up by FSD that the JL2 displays would require a higher resolution in order to be readable in the panel. When I made the pruchase they just stated that the JL2 would be implemented in the patch. That is why I bought the product.Now to make one thing clear. I love my JL2 displays and I think that Jean Luc and his team have made an incredibly great product. I have no reason what so ever to complain about their product.Radarbeam

It's not the first time that we have seen this kind of post regarding FSD. I no longer deal with them, and never will again. Life's far too short for this sort of thing. There's plenty of good freeware out there.David

>think that Jean Luc and his team have made an incredibly great>product. I have no reason what so ever to complain about their>product.Ok, but just playing devils' advocate - I looked at the 2D-panel jpeg you provided and as far as I am concerned the JL2 is too small to be of any serious use. The instruments are simply too small - there is no way in the world, just by looking at pure geometry - that you could read individual digits with this sort of arrangement. You need a specialized view for your PFD/MFD stack (this view is just too wide angle). The issue is that both products may be very good individually but they are not designed to work together too well.Michael J.

I agree totally with the mail of Radarbeam.Some month ago I bought their Cheyenne after having been seduced by the advertising. I had a bunch of problems with that plane and every way I used to try to get it working irritated Mr. Small who suspected me the same way Radarbeam describes. He qualified me recently in a thread here at avsim as an uncivil personn. Mr. Small and its company are no longer on my sellers list and I can either recommand no doing any business with them.I had similar problems ( it can happen ) with other add-on or hardware sellers, and every time I find with them excellent solutions.Regards Roger

Radarbeam,I strongly recommend that you NOT open your computer to this seller. You are not responsible for doing so. Simply delete the file and process the refund thru your CC company. Let them (as your representative) handle the issue for you.No sense exposing yourself to someone you've had an obvious falling out with.Good luck,

May I Just jump in here :)I think this needs to be a little objective. Most if not all Software vendors expect that at least (Last Time I looked) 20% of users of their software will be Pitates, or Hacked copies. They also pass this cost on to paying customers. When You look at a company like Microsoft where they have 1000s of employees and makes more than $12Million per-day, a few cracked copies of office / Windows XP / or whatever is really just a drop in the ocean, Its wrong but this is a fact. On the flip side of that coin we have FSD. FSD whatever their "Edgey" stance is on How many times you install your product, or whatever else they dont like you doing, are merely Trying their hardest to Protect their work and ultimaitly their investment. I also beleive that FSD Beleive so much in their System that they DO NOT PASS ON the cost of Hacked copies to paying Customers. All their planes are of the highest Standards and are well... lets say Very Reasonable, infact very very reasonable price ways (FSD You did not read that :) ). FSD are perfectionists, and I think what they put out, in their mind is what they want you to have. They can not stop be from hacking the Panel Bitmap to death, They may not like it, but they cant stop me, However They can stop me on their forum from advertising the fact, or letting others know through their own forum.I agree that somtimes FSD, can be very cagey especially with stuff like the amount of installs, and yes they can seem like they are seeing matters from their side and their side only, but at the end of the day, I have always got what I wanted with FSD.I think the best thing to do is:Forget about the JL2 in the Navajo, its not designed for it, but enjoy the fact you have a most perfect Navajo.Jason

As expected, this is not at all an honest account of Mr Bourbillon 's communications with us and it highlights how sometimes developers do encounter people who are determined to be liberal with the truth. I don't mind being painted as the bad guy as it is more satisfying for a disgruntled person to personalise what is an impersonal issue.As Mr Bourbillon has made this a public matter, as expected, I am required to reply in order to set the record straight. So let's begin with some facts, which are always helpful if they are complete.The philosophical problem we had agreeing to process a refund Mr Bourbillon demanded with menaces was that he had made public comments in our support forum boasting of his "successfully" modifying copyright material, specifically he indicated to be panel art. He can do that for his own use, if he can manage to, but the issue here is that he indicated his intention (or willingness) to share the end product. Well, distribution of Copyright material is a fairly clear-cut violation of any developers rights as any reader will know (Y/N?) and because of this added dimension we faced a dilemma which was - should we reward him ? It was because of that added dimension I indicated this was not a proper course of action to him in a private memo whereupon, in reply, he demanded a refund of the purchase - with threats & menaces. I am not sure I know of anyone in any publishing field who believes that copyright violation should be rewarded. Is it a common view amongst readers of this message ? Do you feel copyright violation should attract a reward (of free software)? We do not, and that, in a nutshell, is the basis of Mr Bourbillon's complaint. Had Mr Bourbillon at any time communicated with us in a moderately respectful way he would have experienced a different result most likely being complimentary software that he would have the unrestricted use of. But threats and menaces do not usually get that same result as some readers here will recognise from their own personal experiences. I can state categorically that I am not especially accommodating of dishonest people who believe abuse, threats and intimidation should be met with a response of "oh yes sir, thank you sir, may I have some more (abuse)". That's not the way the world works and people who use approach generally do not get very far. Still, there are obviously some (no doubt reading this thread) who do subscribe to that theory that "abuse works, abuse is good". There are people like that in every walk of life and every developer experiences them to some degree. Fortunately the percentage is small and diminishing, our supporters accepting that good manners and a little respect go a very long way. But some, like Mr Bourbillon, do follow a fairly predictable pattern of behaviour and we end up in conflict. I happen to think it is unfortunate that Mr Bourbillon did not understand the issue of copyright and misrepresented the discussion but ultimately, it was Mr Bourbillon's choice to make. C'est la vie.http://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

"We do not, and that, in a nutshell, is the basis of Mr Bourbillon's complaint."Perhaps you should re-read his original complaint... it dealt with a customer's dissatifaction with the avionics upgrade.Please don't try to make this out to be another "this fellow tried to steal from us, so we're here to tell everybody so" type of reply.

Hello Roger,Actually, the words I used were "unpleasant disposition", not 'uncivilised'. The only problem we had prior to initating an unrequested refund for you on 8th October last year was :1. your claims to have never installed the software successfully which you recently publicly critiqued, indicating you HAD installed despite your assurances to the contrary; and 2. seeing the software activated on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean within just a few hours of purchase on the 6th. Sorry to have to set the record straight again in this same venue, Mr Wielgus, but even developers have rights of reply. This is not the venue for it, but before this thread is locked or deleted I am going to remind you of the facts - for all to see.http://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

Greg,I read pretty well, thanks, and you know it from your own experiences. If this user does not like the way R-XP software looks - i.e. if he feels they do not render sufficiently clearly on his small monitor as they should - then he should take it up with Reality-XP. Makes sense yes ? ... I mean, they are not our gauges.Get it yet ?http://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif