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Flying "long" SIDs

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Hello,Is there a way to increase the distance for flying a SID? Here's what happened to me a couple of weeks ago:I took from EDDV and flew a SID that ended at WRB (Warburg) VOR. Just before the last turn that would take me to WRB, ATC told me that I was of my course and fly heading XXX.My autopilot was flying the SID and was spot on. I think that WRB VOR is so far away from EDDV that Radar Contact didn't allow me to fly the SID as filed.Is my assumption correct and is there a easy fix for flying SIDs that end far away from the airport?EDIT:I think I found the plates from here: http://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=eddv%20departures&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CF4QFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.team-niederbayern.de%2FCharts%2FEDDV%2FEDDV.pdf&ei=TCrfTvrUMer74QSxs5zYBg&usg=AFQjCNHRzq-f6sckUiSVd8aLmzbqV15xZg&sig2=rMydAS7AIOSSDr55nEn0awI must have flown from 9R and SID WRB6G


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Jarkko Puustinen

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there is no way programatically to change it. typically the sid is going to end when you contact center. i guess, maybe unrealistically, you can decrease your rate of climb, which will take you further/longer to talk to center.jd

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Thank you for the tips! I have to try them out.


Developer of JAP Flight Planner

Proud supporter of: AirHauler, FS2Crew, RC4, IYP, AS2012, REX, Orbx, Aivlasoft EFB, FSCommander, TOPCAT, PMDG, FlyTheMaddog, Carenado, LionHeartCreation, Wilco, FeelThere, X-Plane, Aerosoft, FlyTampa, FSDreamTeam

Jarkko Puustinen

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Make sure your SID waypoints as in your FMC database are in the plan sent to RC. RC's departure phase ends at 30 nm which is normal. It is not unusual for SID waypoints to be handled by center.See if this helps regarding syncing RC ATC with FMC procedures in paragraphs 6 and 11:FSB tips:1. Include this line in FSbuild.cfg:NAVCHKDUPDIST=100This decreases the chance of using the wrong duplicate named local (to the airport) waypiont from a nearby airport. Local waypoint names are not exclusive. It decreases the database search when it is named in the route to within a 100 nm radius of your airport. You will find these in terminal procedures such as "D" number something within a SID or STAR to define a merge or turning point.2. When doing a Auto Generate (Route) be sure the SR (Stored Route) button next to it is "up" that is not highlighted. Auto Generate will use a stored route if found by default and most are out of date with old waypoints and terminal procedures. Having Stored Routes off forces it to search a path with fresh data. (Now off by default in version 2.4.)**REVISED 6/16/11** 3. FS Build database updates will be exclusively released through navigraph.com. It should be part of the FMC data line. For those not familiar with Navigraph each subscription term (cycle) includes multiple format downloads at no additional cost. This is very convenient for aligning FMC/navigation equipment databases with the flightplanner so among other things ATC data and your nav equipment data should match as you send a plan to ATC and then load it including terminal procedures into your FMC. The 2.4 upgrade includes the thirteenth cycle of 2010. The FSB upgrade is free to 2.x version users and is available via your order history on simmarket.com.4. Where an airport uses specific runways for different terminal procedures select the runway using an estimate based on weather and if the runway fits your aircraft requirements before doing the Auto Generate. This helps select the correct SID and STAR for the runway and direction of departure and arrival.5. After the Auto Generate and/or first build look at the map created to spot any obvious errors. In the route grid look for any sudden non-sensible changes in direction or extremely long legs not in the correct direction creating a zig-zag in the map. (See item 6 following to correct).6. Be aware there is an option you can set for each session titled "Build Route from Grid Table". It does not stick between sessions. This lets you build from an edited route grid that you may have modified without recreating the table with the same error on your next build/export. For example you might wish to drop an errant waypoint when proofing the map and rebuilding.7. Sometimes the name of a procedure (SID/STAR) does not match the name exactly in a published route and the procedure will not expand into its plan waypoints in the grid table. You can click on the arrow in the SID/STAR box to see what close name is in the FSB database. (Another reason to keep up with AIRACS.) For example KMSP has a current real such as this one:http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KMSP/DP/WAUKON+THREEbut the FSB database only has UKN2. (It does have UKN3 now with the latest available AIRAC update). If so in the route line just change UKN3 to UKN2 so it will expand. Here's a real route from flightaware.com for KMSP to KMDW:KMSP UKN3 DBQ CVA MOTIF3 KMDWthat can be pasted into the FSB route line. If UKN3 or MOTIF3 does not expand in the route grid to individual way points look in the upper part of FSB in the airport section dropping down the SID or STAR box to get the available version and substitute that label in the route line and rebuild. Note that the SID and STAR dropdowns may follow the chosen runway in certain areas.8. Sometimes it takes a second build to get the map to move and/or magnify. The mouse scroll wheel lets you magnify. Just click on the portion of the map you want to center on and scroll to magnify.9. If you click on a line in the route grid table to highlight it, the waypoint on the map will turn red. This is useful for finding errant waypoints that cause an error in the path. That line can then be edited or deleted and a rebuild accomplished with the build option to build from the route grid table.10. If you are running a weather program such as active sky, first build the route in FSB exporting to FS9 using an anticipated cruise altitude and specify the nearest aircraft profile. In AS get the weather you wish to use. (I always get the weather for the zulu time of the departure in FS since time of day affects weather characteristics). Import the plan into AS via the new route button, check the altitude and choose an appropriate true airspeed in knots (this is your no wind ground speed). Process the route. When it is finished click the button to print a hard copy of all. Use this AS navlog for METAR data at both ends and winds aloft and temperature aloft that can be used for FMC data. (You'll also get your estimated average wind at your specified altitude - handy for FMC data.) Leave AS running. Now go back to FSB and your chosen aircraft profile. Enter the surface temperature from your departure METAR, then estimated total taxi time, hold time, and extra time (sometimes called discretionary fuel). Now turn on again your FS9 export along with any FMC export you might use. Rebuild and you'll see the messages regarding the export completion. On the route selection on the left which brings up your route window select the navlog tab and click the .pdf to save the navlog in a file or the print button to get a hard copy so you can easily reference the estimated fuel and other data. This estimated fuel has now taken into account your winds aloft data - no need to enter it in FSB. Now that you have the hard copy and exported your route, you can first optionally save the plan by selecting flightplan window, then clicking the category tab, then select user category. Now click file, save from the menu bar. The name you might want to embellish. Click Save Route To User Flight Plans. For another session, you can recall this working plan and just build.11. If you are using an aircraft with nav equipment that has its own terminal data procedures in its nav equipment (think FMC) you might wish to use step 6 above to take out the waypoints of the terminal procedures keeping just the transition points and build and export with just them. This easily in most cases lets you select the SID and STAR assigned by ATC on your nav equipment by providing a clean legs list in your nav equipment. If you need ATC to monitor the waypoints of the terminal procedure than just export all. To keep ATC and you nav equipment in sync, you might consider importing the full plan into your nav equipment and not using your nav equipment procedure database.This is kind of long but through experience I've described some tricks I've used watching out for any pitfalls.Be sure to check the FSBuild forum for updates.

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Thanks ronzie! I remember reading this, but the parts about FSBuild somehow confused me as I have never used FSBuild. I think my workflow should be changed somehow to support the exporting of SID waypoints.Lets see if someone could point out what I could do differently ( I'm using the following add-ons: RC, AirHauler, ASE, AivlaSoft EFB and FSCommander.).Here are some of the steps I go through:1. Select a flight to complete from AirHauler. (This gives my departure and arrival airports)2. Plan the route using EFB and RouteFinder. (I now have the route without SIDs and STARs)3. I enter the planned route to ASE and FSCommander (After this, I'm able to calculate the amount of fuel required)4. I'll export the route (without SID's and STARs) from either EFB or FSC to RC.5. I launch RC to get the ATIS which gives my an indication of current runway in use.6. After receiving taxi instructions, I plan which SID I will be flying. (Many times, active runway has been, lets say 09R, but ground has requested my to taxi to 09C).So if I understand this correctly, I should have exported my SID's nav points in step 4, but I won't know what SIDs are available to my, until step 6.Should I have used ASE's METAR to decide which runway I want to use and the request it from RC if other runway is given? By doing so, I could export SID nav points before launching RC.


Developer of JAP Flight Planner

Proud supporter of: AirHauler, FS2Crew, RC4, IYP, AS2012, REX, Orbx, Aivlasoft EFB, FSCommander, TOPCAT, PMDG, FlyTheMaddog, Carenado, LionHeartCreation, Wilco, FeelThere, X-Plane, Aerosoft, FlyTampa, FSDreamTeam

Jarkko Puustinen

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Runway specific SIDs and STARs usually have common waypoints based on departure/arrival directions terminating/starting with transition points on airways. These common waypoints typically start at 30 nm out for departure and 40 nm out for arrival. Outside of these areas include them in the plan exported to RC.In RC then you can use NOTAMs to allow deviation within that first 30 nm and then for arrival request an IAP after RC assigns the runway and first vector that will allow you FMC to navigate without RC complaining.Arrivals are a bit easier as I do not load the FMC with the final STAR waypoints until RC assigns the runway and I then request the IAP for the final runway specific operations letting the FMC guide the operations.I am not familiar with FSC or EFB so I don't know if you can take out runway specific waypoints from the exported plan to RC as you can in FSB leaving only the common waypoints.In FS9 and FSX AI do not necessarily follow the expected METAR influences but have a complicated runway scoring system which allows such things as some tailwinds based on aircraft class, runway privileges, and other issues, so it is difficult to predict what runways AI use. That is why, in stepping from RC3 to RC4, first priority was given to examining the AI patterns in assigning runways.(I should note that initially ASE for FSX caused problems for some in earlier versions using DWC for smoothing weather. This has to do with ASE having required the use of Global Weather Mode which meant that world wide the weather everywhere was the same as surrounding your aircraft. When RC looked at the AI patterns at 40 nm out, they were responding to the same weather at your 40 nm out aircraft location and then would attempt to change as your aircraft on its way in experienced different reported weather conditions, too late for RC to modify the runway assignment. Much of this has been relieved by ASE updates along with FSUIPC updates. This is best followed on the hi-fi sim forums here on AVSIM. I'm including this as to the effect it has on SIDs and STARs and you predicting when creating your plan which runways will be used so you do not conflict with ai.)Finally, the repeated rule. ATC rules and your FMC is an aide to your navigation in complying. In both RC and your FMC know how to make modifications including doing direct-to's. It is not unusual for pilots to use MCP control when ATC deviates from planned procedures with the FMC displaying the route on the CDU as a guide.Finally you need to insure that your FMC and flight planner terminal database data agrees, an advantage of the navigraph subscriptions at least until you get your planner and FMC in sync.Reading pages 107 through 110 in the rc43 manual gives examples of the issues that concern you and the flexibility of RC when you do not know your deparing runway assignments and the use of common waypoints.

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First of all: I can't thank you enough for taking the time to help me!NOTAMs is something that I haven't (yet) completely understood so I will go through the manual when I get home. I will also check if EFB or FSC would support common waypoints.It seems that the EDDV Warburg SID is a bit problematic. The first common waypoint (TOLTA) is ~47nm from the airport (if my calculations are correct).


Developer of JAP Flight Planner

Proud supporter of: AirHauler, FS2Crew, RC4, IYP, AS2012, REX, Orbx, Aivlasoft EFB, FSCommander, TOPCAT, PMDG, FlyTheMaddog, Carenado, LionHeartCreation, Wilco, FeelThere, X-Plane, Aerosoft, FlyTampa, FSDreamTeam

Jarkko Puustinen

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JAP,If you're loading plans into RC where the first waypoint is the end of the SID then choose Alt Restrictions in the Dep Procedures section on the Controller Info screen. Optionally you can choose No Speed Restrictions if you're outside FAA airspace.RC will then silently monitor your position and will only become active once you reach your first waypoint - the end of the SID. But it will give you clearance to climb higher. That works for me with my routes supplied by vRoute.This system allows you to use the same plan to depart from either end of a runway where the first waypoint is the end of the SID.


Ray (Cheshire, England).
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Cheadle Hulme Weather

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