Maybe the flight modelling isn't that good after all?

[Guest Antlab]

Ok, just for the sake of the argument, I shot some pictures with the default C-172 in XP10, without changing the viewpoint at all.

 

I think it is easy to see that from the default position you can see both the runway and the wingtip without any adjustmen of height. I think we will all agree that you will constantly need to adjust your headposition and center of view when really flying - something that can only be approximated in a desktop sim. You can use trackIR or some similiar device for a fairly good approximation - using the keyboard view keys is certainly not cutting it for quick pattern work.

 

Now we come back to the old discussion of "realism" vs. "ergonomics". Yes, a cockpit setup that will allow you to see ALL of the panel, the runway even at high pitch angles AND the wingtips with just glancing sideways would be very comfortable - but also not realistic at all. In the real plane (I only have about 2hrs in high-wing Cessna´s, but I think it´s that way also) you will need to crane your neck a bit to get a better view of the runway when flaring or when looking outside to see something.

 

But indeed I still don't understand which is the problem claimed by Avcomware.

I noticed that he uses some sort of self-appointed "teacher" tone, but the question of the relation between the 3D vision in real world and the 2D vision on a monitor is very old, in all the sectors of computer simulation. And we all know, as you correctly remember, that just for that purpose people during the years invented devices like TrackIR or similar, multimonitor setups and so on.

Furthermore in XP there are tons of view options, including the possibility to change the lateral field of view.

Surely there is many things that can be improved in the sim, but this sincerely doesn't seem quite so critical.

 

A.

[60North 120]

very important in teaching someone visual flight, ground effect slightly perceptible in the FSX with RYoung's model.

 

FYI, a real C172 does NOT enter chord dominated ground effect, only thing you might notice is a slight speed increase (drag reduction).

Further, FS (default) has completely misunderstood how ground effect works which I have documented here before. I personally

participated and documented the development of XP's ground effect so I KNOW it's in the ballpark.

So your perception of both the REAL world, FS and XP all seem to be terribly missled.

 

M

[wb5okj 26]

Actually what Avcomware is gripng about, is that if you raise your viewpoint up to where you can see the cowling when looking out over the nose, then look to the right or left, you indeed cannot see out the window at the wingtips. all you will see is the top of the window. So it is a positional thing that he is talking about. It can be overcome somewhat using TrackIR.

[Janov 2,383]

Actually what Avcomware is gripng about, is that if you raise your viewpoint up to where you can see the cowling when looking out over the nose, then look to the right or left, you indeed cannot see out the window at the wingtips. all you will see is the top of the window.

 

Ok, now I get it. Well, if the default Cessna´s 3D geometry is wrong, then I am by all means for fixing it. Even if that is very low on the list of problems.

 

The question is: Is the geometry wrong? Is the dash mounted too high? Are the window frames too low? Real Cessna pilots input needed here, I guess.

 

Jan

[Guest bstolle]

Just take a look here: http://www.google.de...r:42,s:482,i:95

 

Either you duck and can see the wings, or if you don't you can see just a tiny part of the cowling but no wings or wingtips.....

[Avcomware 1]

Hi MortenM.

 

I personally

participated and documented the development of XP's ground effect so I KNOW it's in the ballpark.

So your perception of both the REAL world, FS and XP all seem to be terribly missled.

 

Personal attack removed by Mod. No more of this please. SF

[wb5okj 26]

The question is: Is the geometry wrong? Is the dash mounted too high? Are the window frames too low? Real Cessna pilots input needed here, I guess.

 

 

I think the answer here is a yes, having said that, think probably we have the infamous tradeoff here. If the geometry is set to be correct, then you won't be able to see all of the panel, and on a lot of the panels the instruments that you won't see, are probably the most critical ones, this is talking about the default, (may we say 2Dpanel here), in the 3D panel one can scroll around or better, use TrackIR. However not everyone likes or wants to use the 3D panel, so perhaps the developers have to make a tradeoff here trying to make the sim usable for everyone. Please be aware this is only my thinking and opinions on this, but it seems to be a reasonable supposition to me.

 

I like to see some of the cowling looking over the panel, particularly on light singles, so I go into Planemaker and set the pilots vertical view up a little bit, there again it is usually a tradeoff and is never perfect, but I can usually get it to where I can live with it.

 

In a Cessna 172 in real life, if you are looking straight out of the windshield, you won't even see the panel, your head is about 2 feet above the panel, however it is very hard to get this view on a small 2 dimensional flat monitor and still fly.

[Avcomware 1]

Hi SF.

 

>>Personal attack removed by Mod. No more of this please. SF<<

 

>>So your perception of both the REAL world, FS and XP all seem to be terribly missled.<<

 

I am not sure I understand how was my statement different than the one you alowed from Morten?

I would have approached you on private Email but I do not know How? Who you are. Have you seen other posts directed at me?

 

TV

[wb5okj 26]

As a point of interest and continue Avcomware position, (I neither agree, or disagree with his position ) I have several C172SP from different developers, the only one that comes close to what Avcomware desires is from Jason Chandler. His C172SP setting in the default position, one can see some of the cowling, (not as much as in real life), and from that position looking left quite a bit of the left wingtip is in view, same with the right view. In fact one can raise your view position, (using the up, down arrows on the keyboard) and get a position whereas you can see the wingtips, a lot of the cowling and still see the critical instruments. "GOOD JOB". Jason.

 

The only other plane that looks close to right is the Carenado C152 II. Again on that particular plane in the default position one can see a good portion of the cowling and the wingtips while still seeing all of the instruments. Carenado's C172 view however seems to be off.

[Avcomware 1]

Hi wb5okj and everyone.

 

>>...however it is very hard to get this view on a small 2 dimensional flat monitor and still fly. <<

 

It is actually very easy to implement. I designed an 182RG, in GMAX for FS9 about 8 years ago, that does that, and I don't even consider myself to be an aircraft designer. See pics below.

Here is another example and I can show you many more if you like.

The problem is that you get these "experts" defined as "one that knows more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing" that are allowed, and believed as being right, and the people that actually try to help, and actually know something get edited / pushed out. TV

 

 

 

 

[woweezowee 10]

Carenado's C172 view however seems to be off.

 

…a bit. That's why I adjusted it in plane maker. That's an affair of one minute. I really don't get the issue discussed here.

[wb5okj 26]

That's why I adjusted it in plane maker. That's an affair of one minute. I really don't get the issue discussed here.

 

I usually adjust in planemaker so that I can see over the cowling, but when I do that then look to the left or right, I see the top of the door. In other words, I am in effect setting too high. Is there a setting in planemaker to lower the doors? The only setting I have played with, is the pilots vertical and longarm view. Occasionaly I move the lateral view a bit, usually to the left a little more. Again can we move the view looking out the doors to the left or right?

[woweezowee 10]

My "combination" is FOV in sim = 77; plane maker vertical arm = 1.73.

Adusting seat height in sim: up/down arrows.

[wb5okj 26]

@ Avcomware,

 

Those are pretty good views, As I stated before those are about the views that Carenado gets in their C152II.

 

I wonder if most of the views done in high wing X Plane are from people not thinking about the views. I know I really hadn't thought too much about them until you brought them up, and still after you bringing the problem up a lot of people still don't understand what you are really saying. It maybe the same with some developers, either they may not have thought about the problem, or didn't really think it was that much of a problem. I have two high wing Cessna's, that have the view more like you are talking about, one from Jason Chandler, and the aforementioned C152II.

[MdMax 233]

I have two high wing Cessna's, that have the view more like you are talking about, one from Jason Chandler, and the aforementioned C152II.

 

In fact, it's OK in most add-on Cessna's for X-Plane. :unknw:

 

Cessna 182TC by Jason Chandler:

 

 

Cessna 152 by 4Forces: