I’m trying to fly more mission type activities and am therefore trying to learn how to cooperate with ATC. But – they are really confusing me!

 

I recently flew a CS 727-200 Cargo plane from KSAN to KLAX using VOR to VOR navigation at FL20 since that would be more appropriate for a 1972 flight.

 

My IFR flight plan filed before takeoff in KSAN:

 

KSAN Rwy 9 –>039° to JLI (Julian) -> 302° to PDZ (Paradise / Ontario) -> 294° to POM (Pomona) -> 242°to LAX

 

San Diego Tower routed me:

take off and maintain RWY (90°) heading to FL11

 

KSAN handed me off to SoCal approach who after 20 miles on RWY heading routed me:

turn Left to 010° at FL14 (heading to JLI was 010° - so that turn was just right!)

 

SoCal Approach then handed me to Tijuana Approach! who after 40 miles told me turn Right to 120° (directly opposite my filed plan!) - then TJ approach never talked to me again!

 

Once east of Salton I contacted SoCal approach and refilled the flight plan and was routed to 240° at FL20 - After a few minutes I was told to resume my own navigation at FL20 on my filed plan

 

Once at POM (the last VOR before heading to LAX) SoCal approach handed me to LA Center who routed me at 170° and FL11 toward Long Beach

 

SoCal approach and LA Center handed me back and forth twice more – always giving me new vectors and eventually getting me down to 7000’

 

Finally…once I was SW of Long Beachat 7000' - LA Center handed me back to SoCal Approach who turned me around (third time) and routed me at 340° descending to 2200’ to intercept the localizer for 24R at KLAX

 

SO – I have several questions!

 

1) Why did SoCal Approach hand me to Tijuana Approach when I filed plan to fly NW?

 

2) Why did Tijuana Approach send me SE for 30 miles when my plan was filed to fly NW? Why did TJ approach then forget about me? What should I do in that case?

 

3) Why did SoCal Approach and LA Center had me back and forth, each time with new vectors, three times?

 

4) Once LA Center told me to intercept the localizer for 24R on a 100° crossing angle – do they assume I will make that left turn and fly the localizer?

 

5) LA Center told me not to descend below 2200’ before intercepting the localizer – am I supposed to determine the proper altitude to be at when intercepting the localizer?

 

6) I understand glide slopes and interceptions but how was I to determine the proper intercept height?

 

7) Is it common for ATC to have a commercial jet intercept a localizer from a 100 angle?

Your questions are solid and shows you are thinking critically about instrument flying, but if you're using default FSX ATC, the answer is that those types of scenarios don't happen in real life when managed by professional controllers. As far as the altitude restriction before intercepting the localizer, if you look at your approach plate for the ILS you are flying you'll notice that there are altitude restriction throughout the approach. Since you are being vectored by ATC, it is common for them to instruct pilots to maintain a certain altitude or don't descend below a certain altitude "until established," because if you are estasblished, you are considered to be on a safe path to the runway, if you're not they don't want you to descend because you may end up flying into some obstacle or terrain. It's all about safety.

 

So for your question about knowing what altitude to be at, if the controller says not to descend below 2200' then assume that, that is your intercept altitude.

AWACS - thanks for the reply but I am still pretty confused.

 

I am a pretty serious sailboat navigator and am very familiar with radar vectors, bearing intercepts, and GPS navigation. The detail question I am asking about the ILS intercept altitude is:

 

If the vector ATC gives me to the intercept leads me to cross the ILS glidepath at 6.3 NM from the TDZ - then 2200' is the correct intercept altitude

 

BUT if the vector leads me to the ILS intercept at 14.3NM from the TDZ the intercept altitude should be 4000'

 

So how do I know where the ATC vector will cross the ILS course?

 

The 24R approach plate says "When assigned by ATC. intercept glidepath at 4000" and that is what the 330 degree bearing from the Seal Beach IAF (VOR) shows on the chart - cross the ILS glidepath at MERCE at 4000' and that was the vector that ATC gave me

 

Do I need to chart the vector while flying to determine the ILS glidepath crossing point and then use the Approach chart to lookup the correct altitude?

If your assigned altitude is 2,200ft, your intercept altitude will also be 2,200ft: You fly the course assigned to you by ATC until you intercept the LOC, then fly the ILS LOC course, until you intercept the G/S and then you descend following the G/S until you touch down.

 

If the vector ATC gives me to the intercept leads me to cross the ILS glidepath at 6.3 NM from the TDZ - then 2200' is the correct intercept altitude

 

BUT if the vector leads me to the ILS intercept at 14.3NM from the TDZ the intercept altitude should be 4000'.

 

 

I believe, real world ATC wouldn't vector you in that way, they'd rather give you the instruction to descend/maintain 4,000ft.

 

You'll know you've intercepted the LOC the same way you'll know you've intercepted the radial of a VOR, since that's practically the same thing, except that an ILS LOC sends its signal in only one diretion (usually the RWY heading).

(See picture attached)

 

And on a modern plane:

 

Regards

Flo

OE-LAT

 

Thanks - I understand you are saying that IF ATC assigns me 2200' to descend to that altitude, intercept the LOC, fly the LOC at the assigned altitude and intercept the GS from below - that makes sense to me and is doable.

 

BUT - I THINK (I don't have the ATC traffic in front of me but I am pretty sure) they told me while I was at 7000' flying SSW to "turn right to 340 degrees and descend to intercept the ILS for 24R - do not descend below 2200' until on the ILS"

 

SO - if they did tell that - do I try to intercept the LOC / GS at the Approach chart altitude for the distance from the TDZ or do I continue my descend to 2200' and intercept the GS from below as discussed above?

 

Thanks for taking the time with these details!

Were you flying under default ATC or any other program?

If it was default ATC, they told you to "turn right to 340deg, descend and maintain 2,200 until established, tower on xxx" for sure, so that's just FSX's incorrect way of giving vectors to final, though I've never heard of a 100 degree intercept angle(should be not more than 30 degrees as far as I know).

 

I'm not sure about this, but I'd say that instructions given by ATC have priority over charts, so I'd descend to 2,200ft, intercept LOC and G/S and follow them. But I don't know for sure, since I'm neither real world pilot nor ATC.

 

Hope I was of help, though.