Hello!

 

I just did a trial flight with the demo version. I flew with a c208 from Zurich to Innsbruck. I've been using LOWI as a base in AirHauler and wanted to see how VoxATC handles the challenging approach in to LOWI.

 

Here's the route I filed (@FL190): LSZH DEGES Z2 OSDOV M738 MADEB N606 ELMEM LOWI

 

Things got a terrifying twist when I was vectored of ELEM1A arrival. "Turn left heading 055, descend to 3500". After the turn, I was nose to nose with a 13000ft mountain and descending!

 

After that, I had to fly the approach visually, while VoxATC was repeating the heading and altitude that would smash me straight into a mountain.

 

So before I break out my credit card, what can I do to make VoxATC aware of the surrounding terrain?

 

I looked at the Level-D (cycle 1210) navdata that I requested VoxATC to use. There were no altitude restrictions for the STARs to LOWI. Only the localizer approach for runway 26 had correct altitude constrains.

 

What is the correct way of teaching VoxATC the altitudes that are found in these plates: STAR http://charts.vacc-a...AR_07082012.pdf and approach http://charts.vacc-a...st_07082012.pdf?

 

Thanks for the help!

 

EDIT: Found more suitable charts. Original was: http://data.x-plane.com/Docs/LOWI.pdf

Edited September 23, 201213 yr by jpuustinen

Hi Jarkko,

None of the ATC programs I know do what you want "right out of the box".

 

PFE and VoxATC rely on Navigraph's data. If the data are not in there they don't know them.

The PFE manual states "PFE does not detect terrain efficiently enough to be able to successfully vector you around hazards."

 

The same goes for RC4 (which you know). It doesn't use Navigraph's data. You don't get any STARs but you can call for an IAP approach You can then fly a STAR via your FMC, and when you tick "Arrivals Notam" in "Controller Info" your altitude isn't monitored as closely as usual. Not exactly what you are looking for.

 

In VoxATC you have the possibility to set up a custom STAR (page 59-60) according to your plates.

So I think, with a bit of work, VoxATC is the only one you can make aware of the surrounding terrain when flying a STAR whose database in Navigraph is lacking details.

 

Regards, Andreas

Thank you Andreas for a great reply!

 

What if I were to edit the LOWI Navdata by hand. Lets say that I would add altitude contrains to the STARs and also add a localizer approach to rwy 06 (according to the plates). Would I still be vectored for the approach or is there a change that I would be assigned my hand made localizer approach?

 

Just wanted check before I start spending my time learning the Level-D Navdata format

Hi Jarkko,

Sorry, I have no experience with editing Navdata and don't know what VoxATC will do with these data.

Regards, Andreas

No problem Andreas and thank you again for taking the time to help me!

 

When my new born gives me enough time, I'll see if I can modify the Navdata. Will report back with results. Just don't hold your breath. Might take couple of days or couple of months

yeah, I have that issue in LOWI as well wanted to ram me into the hills.

other than that I never really had any terrain issue with VoxATC other than that occurrence at LOWI.

however I do have the Aerosoft scenery for LOWI, so it could be Vox gets confused with that scenery.

Just a quick update.

 

I also have the AeroSoft scenery for LOWI. Yesterday I modified the Level-D Navdata by adding 13000 as altitude restriction for ELMEM1A arrival. When I requested descent, I was asked to descent to 13000. Cool!

 

After that, it got dangerous again I was vectored of ELMEM1A and requested to descend to 3900 with mountains rising in front of me.

 

Here's what I think is happening. VoxATC doesn't know about the terrain. Also approaches from the west aren't included in the Navdata, because the last part of the approach has to be flown visually. As the approaches are missing, VoxATC is forced to vector you for landing (without knowing about the mountains).

 

When I have time again. I'll try to add the approaches to the Navdata by hand.

once you are done with all those Tweaking of the LOWI navdata, please share with us the LOWI.xml file , that we all can enjoy it

I also believe that the reason behind Vox vectoring you though the mountains are due to the fact that it is unaware of the terrain.

I use also the Aerosoft Addon for LOWI

I just did the 2nd tutorial of the PMDG NGX which uses SID from Amsterdam enroute to LOWI and STAR to LOWI. Specifically, the LOWI approach goes in via RTTB then requires you to overfly the airfield and then with AP off, manual 180 degree turn to land. This in order to lose the height after getting over the surrounding mountains. The airfield overfly is at around 2000ft. This is I believe the normal LOWI approach for anything of any size It took me several tries and included one with a VS of over -3000 fpm (in a passenger aircraft fully loaded) after the FMC said VNAV path unattainable. Shook the PAX up. But the point is that's what the navdata lines you up for. You can't approach from the west because of the mountains being too high that end of the valley.

 

Mike

You can't approach from the west because of the mountains being too high that end of the valley.

 

Just to make sure I understand correctly. You can't approach from the west with VoxATC or you can't approach from west at all? If the latter then here's a video I found, that has the approach flown as published:

 

 

If I understand correctly, the RTTB/east approach to 08, doesn't require a turn to "burn of speed" as such. You fly 08 approach as you would for runway 26, but instead of landing 26, you join the downwind for runway 08 (from NDB AB towards NDB INN if my memory serves my correctly).

 

Here's a real world landing to runway 26 from the east. Note that there are no extra turns required:

 

 

I might be totally wrong, but that is my current understanding

 

Cheers!

 

Jarkko

Was my understanding you can't approach from the west at all. it's not speed loss, it's the height you need to lose. But I may be totally wrong The turn is when you want/are required to land 26 - (due to wind?), from the east approach. I would presume you could do a west approach in the sim with Vox or others if you programmed the right waypoint/STAR, but would possibly get a VNAV problem. I'm going to try it though. Certainly you can do a east approach for RY 26, that's the ILS. But as I say, may have misunderstood. . From the topo the western approach would require 45 degree turn 5 miles short of 26 coming down the valley as the best route. Does that make sense or am I talking rubbish?

 

Cheers, Mike

Sorry for a short reply as, I'm currently pressed for time.

 

Here are the plates for LOWI: http://www.vacc-austria.org/?page=content/chartlist&icao=LOWI and the approach from the west: http://charts.vacc-austria.org/LOWI/LOWI_Approach_LOC%20DME%20West_07082012.pdf

 

When approaching from the west, you fly past the airfield and turn pack for a visual approach. From these plates I got the idea that you can approach from the west

Alright, I am talking rubbish. I should have said directly from the west Then it can be the same both ways. (according to PMDG) "the most famous and challenging one is the LOC/DME East with the circle to land procedure and visual for 08. Both ways you fly past then. Going on your first link in last post, the normal LOC/DME East is a straight in to 26 while the one I'm referring to is "Special" LOC/DME East which gives the circle. That clears that up, now. The PMDG one using latest airac specifially says you have to fly the last turn and landing manually i.e in via RTTB, over the field a leftish turn using HDG then AP off to 180 right turn into 26. The western approach you mention in your first post you should fly ELMEM to KUEHTAI at 13000 (the ELMEM1A), then a 55-60 vector would be about right would it not - still a steep descent. But if you don't have the altitudes in from navdata correctly ( Navigraph not VoxATC or VoxATC not recognizing, I don't know. Did you have KUEHTAI as last waypoint?. I noticed something similar a while ago when flying Manchester to Geneva without VoxATC. Flying the approach on AP via programmed FMC in an A300, it tried to take me through not over the southern ridge of the valley. That was navdata as well, not ATC.

Suspect that doesn't help. One thing though, were you flying real weather? The FS own ATC started me on an approach/vectors the other day and then appeared to change the runway part way throughI had to declare a miss and got run 30nm south before vectored back for the other end . .

And further I just tried a WPT to WPT from LSZH - KLO (1st SID?) FHD KPT KTI (for STAR) LOWI. Vox said direct to FHD never mentioned KLO which I was over but fine NAV AP took me on, KPT ok HDG heading toKTI and halfway Vox said go down to 890o then 6900 while heading 50 (more or less direct to LOWI, well before KTI - and through a mountain. Climbed and dodged but stayed as close as possible, went ENE over LOWI no instructions, then turn right 255 (through another mountain.Appeared to be trying to get me back onto the eastern approach with 180 turn onto 26. Still trying to turn me into mountains nothing about landing, no mention out or in of SIDS/STARS' I gave up.

How do you know the LSZH DEGES Z2 OSDOV M738 MADEB N606 ELMEM LOWI routing before the flight with only a couple of waypoints and no FMC?. I don't understand why the 737 gets it right - it must get the VNAV fro navadata, no? But Vox doesn't use it. And how do you know if Vox has assigned a SID/STAR? I know you're supposed to have the right waypointsin your FSX FP, but how do you know if Vox has given you a SID/STAR. I can find the SID or STAR for an airport from the database, but can,t see the waypoints. I'm now going nuts about this :(

 

Mike

 

 

disregard the above except for a laugh. I started by getting the Navigraph plates for LOWI where it seems that the STARs end at KTI bzw. RTT, then you do LOC/DME West or East procedure into the visual final and landing. Confusing is that the the West visual procedure seemed to show two turns - and lo, so it is! See this

http://www.simtours.net/innsbruck.php

and it notes also if coming from the west for RY08 you ignore ATC and make a right turn, not a left as it was telling me. Explains why I was all over the place, but not unfortunately why VOX takes you through a mountain or two. Perchance the same applies to the west approach, right not left (then ignore ATC after KTI or RTT). The VNAV info is in the database but as said, clearly Vox doesn't use it although the FMC does and will take you on from the end of the STAR up to the start of visual

Edited October 25, 201213 yr by birdmanmike