Real world Piper Archer III Question

[haztronic 1]

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding the Archer III year 2000 model. I'm planning on doing a flight next saturday from John Wayne to St. George, Utah. Its 294nm and should take 2 hours and 30mins to complete at around 120kts. I know the range of the aircraft is fine for this flight considering its max range is over 500nm, the fuel should only take 24 gallons being conservative but the elevation at St. George is 2,884ft. Now this isn't really high at all but I know you don't really want to fly Archer III's at elevations of say 5,500ft . So my question is does anybody know for this type of aircraft, what the maximum elevation for safe flight would be? I'm just thinking of density altitude here.

 

Very much appreciated for any help I can get.

[Cessnaflyer 56]

2884 is not very high at all. You will be fine.

 

I would start to worry in an underpowered aircraft operating out of Leadville, CO.

[Great Ozzie 101]

but I know you don't really want to fly Archer III's at elevations of say 5,500ft

 

Why not? That was "routine" for an X-C in a Warrior II (during my flight training). I flew the Warrior at least on one occasion during the summer @ 11,500. You'll have to take airspace restrictions, obstacles (& clearance of) performance (time to climb etc) weather... into consideration... know those performance charts inside and out!

 

If you are not completely confident & comfortable with such a trip or proposed altitude... find an instructor (to fly the trip with you). There is no shame in that. Remember... if you are not sure... you just made your decision.

 

You could also practice a 5-7000 foot trip (following FAR altitude rules)... just a short out and back at your home airport to gain a bit of experience climbing to that altitude and making the return descent. Again, grab an instructor if you feel a bit of trepidation. A macho attitude is not good for much in aviation except for having an accident.

 

the fuel should only take 24 gallons being conservative

 

That sounds like you'll be "bone dry"... never ever land w/o a minimum of 1 (one) hour fuel remaining. Means you are on the ground w/o even having dipped into that 1 hour reserve.

 

Btw... the very least it is always a good thing to consult an instructor on your proposed trip... just a few minutes of ground. Some guys (like me) won't charge.

 

-Rob

[haztronic 1]

That sounds like you'll be "bone dry"

 

The aircraft can carry 48 usable gallons so how would using 24 and then still having another 24 remaining make it bone dry? Not to mention I will continually be switching tanks during the flight.

 

Thank you for the advice though, I will definitely be having a discussion with my instructor about the flight. I'm not worried about it, I just thought I'd get some advice from here also.

[michal 44]

but I know you don't really want to fly Archer III's at elevations of say 5,500ft .

Where do you know this from????

I spotted this sentence and it made absolutely no sense at all to me (apart from its confusing terminology).

With aroound 200 hrs in my logbook in Archers/Warriors I never saw any restriction like that.

I was routinely taking off at field elevations of 6400 ft with density altitude being even higher.

Very often during my cross country trips flying at above 11,000 ft (had to because of terrain).

 

(Also lets use proper aviation terminology and not something as confusing as "fly at elevations", you fly at altitudes, you can say you land/takeoff at certain density altitude or use word 'airport elevation' if you really want, your above statement was highly confusing and had to guess what exactly you meant).

[haztronic 1]

Excuse me, I know you fly at 'altitudes', however you use the word elevation when describing what height an airport is at. And no there isn't any restrictions in ink but my cheif flight instructor (former United senior captain) told me that the Archer III's don't do that well at high density altitudes. And when I said elevations of say '5,500ft' I wasn't talking about altitudes otherwise I would have stated the world 'altitude', I meant field elevation, hence why I said elevation.

 

I'm here because I am trying to be safe, not to be told how to talk.

[tttocs 301]

Now this isn't really high at all but I know you don't really want to fly Archer III's at elevations of say 5,500ft .

 

Ah, you sea level guys! The airport where I used to rent a Warrior II (the late, lamented 3V5) was at just a few feet below 5,000. I went many places in that Warrior - it was my first Piper after a steady diet of Cessnas - and obviously almost all of them required considerably higher cruise altitudes than 5,500'. :-)

 

If you've not flown into or out of higher altitude airports before (and it sounds like that's the case) I would strongly recommend some time with an instructor at least discussing mountain flying and how it relates to the Warrior's capabilities. Density altitude becomes more than a theoretical discussion when flying any normally aspirated light plane into and out of higher elevations, and Saint George, while not that high, is ringed by significant high terrain and can still be quite warm this time of year.

 

Good luck and fly safe,

 

Scott

[haztronic 1]

Thanks for the great advice Scott. Haha and I know what you mean, us sea level guys especially early pilots don't really see many high elevation airports around here except big bear in southern california.

[Great Ozzie 101]

my cheif flight instructor (former United senior captain) told me that the Archer III's don't do that well at high density altitudes.

 

Ok fine... but "high density altitudes" needs to be defined... and why the main concern: mainly for takeoff and landing (barring terrain / obstacle issues). Not so much because of cruise performance.

 

 

The aircraft can carry 48 usable gallons so how would using 24 and then still having another 24 remaining make it bone dry?

 

Yeah I'm clear on useable fuel... I've instructed not only in Warriors but Archers / Arrows / Dakotas as well.

 

Your statement "the fuel should only take 24 gallons being conservative" left out how much you are planning to take... so I just wanted to be clear on this point.

 

Reason for me clarifying is there are way, way too many fuel exhaustion accidents every year... most (I'd like so see one for mech reasons) due to poor fuel management / planning. It is totally inexcusable and preventable. Not accusing you here of that... just wanted to be clear on this.

 

Btw... when I think of fuel use... I think in terms of hour & minutes - not in NM or gals or whatever other metric. For example w/ the Warrior.... I know I will use roughly 8.8gph @ 65% (leaned to) Best Power... fuel full gives me roughly 5hrs total time. I start the plane... look at the clock... in 4 hours I will be back on the ground period. No exceptions... no excuses.

 

You'll be switching tanks? Sure, yes... but what if the selector breaks... I had one do that in a Saratoga. Just something to think about and plan for.

 

Hope you have an excellent flight!

-Rob

[michal 44]

that the Archer III's don't do that well at high density altitudes.

This makes no sense unless one starts talking real numbers, what is "high"? And what does it mean "don't do well" - is it about cruise or takeoffs or what???

And then throw at it more variables like how much cargo/human weight you carry and this makes further huge difference in your density alt. considerations. In other words such blanklet statements are pretty meaningless.

[bic 44]

Hi everyone,

I have a question regarding the Archer III year 2000 model. I'm planning on doing a flight next saturday from John Wayne to St. George, Utah. Its 294nm and should take 2 hours and 30mins to complete at around 120kts. I know the range of the aircraft is fine for this flight considering its max range is over 500nm, the fuel should only take 24 gallons being conservative but the elevation at St. George is 2,884ft. Now this isn't really high at all but I know you don't really want to fly Archer III's at elevations of say 5,500ft . So my question is does anybody know for this type of aircraft, what the maximum elevation for safe flight would be? I'm just thinking of density altitude here.

 

Very much appreciated for any help I can get.

 

Well if you "worried" about max elevation, what is the MSA for that route?

[Great Ozzie 101]

In other words such blanklet statements are pretty meaningless.

 

I agree with you Michael (the comment begs further discussion) but look at the context here...

 

Senior United pilot whom he respects vs. private pilot... and he obviously feels (or felt) safe / comfortable asking here... I hope we aren't beating him up too bad.

 

-Rob

[michal 44]

I hope we aren't beating him up too bad.

I hope too. :huh:

I just was totally buffled by the whole context of these questions, on the way from John Wayne to St.George he will be facing a rather challenging terrain, lots of obstacles, restricted airspaces, MOAs, I would not feel comfortable flying there (at least on many legs) below 9000-10000 (VFR) yet he worries about 2800 airport elevation. It just didn't click with me.

[Great Ozzie 101]

I just was totally buffled by the whole context of these questions

 

I'm sorry man... I just looked at the route (skyvector) and see one would have to fly the Banning Pass (or Victor 8 North of Big Bear) then follow the Colorado River to Lake Mead (then I-15)... plus the things you mention... and appears to be a TFR at Vegas starting Sunday... it is a "challenging" route.

 

I spoke before reviewing the flight - and now see where you're coming from.