What happened to the MAAM announcement post?

[Guest JDH]

I am inclined to agree with you. If there was a real issue with copyright breach, it should have been dealt with through appropriate legal procedures. What has actually happened was petty mud-slinging and name calling, disgraceful behaviour on BOTH sides of the arguement.

[Guest jaapverduijn]

By publishing and drawing attention to the article by Russ Strine, AVSIM has complicated the issue enormously. Again I am speaking from a Dutch point of view, while in the States the situation might be quite different. Right "here" though, after Strine/Allensworth published the allegations in the "screaming banshee" document on AVSIM, there would be a serious chance no lawyer would accept the case anymore, and if some lawyer still did, there would be a serious chance that it would be immediately flung out of court. As for Russ Strine and the MAAM crew, the only reason I can think of why he published his document instead of making it a court issue (after all, in his document he accuses RCS of THEFT), is that he suspects MAAM doesn't have a legal leg to stand on and would either be laughed out of court, or loose the case. What happened instead, is not the dealing with a legal issue in a legal way, but the mobilizing of a lynch mob which, as it seems, is backfiring against MAAM in a major way.AVSIM has, for reasons only Tom Allensworth knows, heartily collaborated on pointing MAAM in the direction of possible financial, legal and reputational ruin, which makes me repeat my earlier statement that with friends like AVSIM one doesn't need enemies.Speaking from decades of writing, editing and publishing experience, I am of the opinion that AVSIM should have protected Russ Strine and Bill Rambow against themselves by refusing to publish the MAAM statement. Of course AVSIM could nor can prevent MAAM from publishing their (possibly libellous) statement elsewhere, but at least AVSIM should have refrained from actually helping Strine and Rambow dig their own graves. Jaap Verduijn.

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

No great conspiracy here folks. We were wondering what happened to it too. It was just pointed out to me by the tech staff that fumble fingers (me) apparently deleted the post (according to the logs). I guess I tried to delete a single message and hit the wrong delete key. Mea culpa folks.

[ErnieAlston 33]

>As for Russ Strine and the MAAM crew, the only reason I can think >of why he published his document instead of making it a court issue >(after all, in his document he accuses RCS of THEFT), is that he >suspects MAAM doesn't have a legal leg to stand on and would either >be laughed out of court, or loose the case. What happened instead, >is not the dealing with a legal issue in a legal way, but the >mobilizing of a lynch mob which, as it seems, is backfiring against >MAAM in a major way.Thats unlikely. MAAM must think they have overwhelming evidence, else they would be libelous. You don't make these kind of direct accusations unless you believe you have a lot to back it up with.Regards.Ernie.

[Guest jaapverduijn]

Tom, we all hit the wrong button every now and then (grin)! Yet I'm quite happy that the thread in question is gone, for it was beginning to mightily backfire against MAAM. So does, as I mentioned before, Russ Strine's own statement that started all this hullabaloo. If I were you (which I ain't) I would seriously consider protecting Russ Strine, Bill Rambow and MAAM against themselves by removing said statement, which in its published version will mainly serve to put the authors into deep manure, resulting in them having to spend the money we all donated for the R4D and for Briefing Time on legal fees instead of on Pratt&Whithey engines. Jaap Verduijn.

[Guest Matt Johnson]

Jaap,Roy is in England. MAAM is in the USA. International court cases don't happen unless you have several million dollars to spend bringing suit. If you, as a European, default on some payments to a relatively small US company, the US company will say some very rude words to you, possibly file a report to the state or federal authorities... but, until you set foot in the USA, they don't have any jurisdiction.MAAM, being a voluntary organization, most likely does not have either the will or the funds to spare in mounting a full-blown legal challenge.While I will admit that Roy Chaffin has not exactly been on my Christmas card list for quite a while, I had taken it as read that he would have been gentlemanly enough to eschew any sort of copyright infringement. For one who has publicly upheld a good reputation, and one who has fiercely protected his own works in the past, this apparent volte-face is saddening to me at the very least. He is a talented designer who, it seems, has made a very significant error of judgement on this issue. His original work on the R-4D and various other aircraft indicates that Roy Chaffin is a fine craftsman capable of producing top quality resources for our hobby -- to look beneath the surface and find this black mark appearing by his name is nothing short of awful.It is not outside the realms of possibility that this may be explained away to a miscommunication, but I must say that I find this conclusion deeply improbable.Regards,--M

[Guest jaapverduijn]

Greetings Ernie!"(...) MAAM must think they have overwhelming evidence, else they would be libelous (...)"I fear they are. Mind, I am NOT sure, especially since this a US law issue and not a Dutch one, but my knowledge of (Dutch) jurisprudence gives me a very uneasy feeling about Russ Strine's publication. The choice of words is such that, even if their CONTENT is true, their WORDING might still be libellous. In such situations not only WHAT you see can be sued, but also HOW you say it. I fear that Strine and Rambow have compiled the document from a purely technical point of view, with total disregard for its legal aspects. And that's dumb. If you accuse a person of criminal acts, you should take care to word your accusation in such a way that it can pass legal muster. As for you thinking MAAM has overwhelming evidence... well, I don't think it looks like that. If you have good and sound evidence, you keep your trap shut and make use of it in the legal confines of a court, instead of making it public by hollering it off the rooftops in a possibly libellous way. "(...) You don't make these kind of direct accusations unless you believe you have a lot to back it up with (...)"Even if they HAVE a lot to back their accusations up, they blew there case prematurely in a major way by raising the public stink they did. Courts of law tend to frown upon people who fight and shoot their mouths off in the media about any case that might yet come to court. MAAM has made it very hard for themselves to now get a decent court case on the alleged copyright and "theft" matters, while on the other hand they have opened up themselves to a mighty big libel suit if Roy Chaffin gets in a bad mood by all the names he has been called.Only because I see the idiotic evidence in front of me, I find it possible to believe that people can be so utterly, totally and incredibly stupid as Rambow and Strine have shown themselves to be in this issue. I believe it because I see it, but I still find it totally incomprehensible that people who ought to know better, dig their own graves with such an enormous dedication and energy.Jaap Verduijn.

[LAdamson 240]

Three things here.....Roy started some of the name calling in statements issued with his B-25 release, which is included with the download. It was not in a "gentleman" fashion, as mentioned by some.And secondly, there is not enough "funds" associated with this whole mess to end up with some "mighty court case". It's still "toy" airplanes and little real cash; not to mention the Atlantic Ocean in between!Third ---------- looks like opinions seem to be which side of the "pond" we're on. L.Adamson --- still keeping both of them

[Guest jaapverduijn]

Greetings Matt!"(...) It is not outside the realms of possibility that this may beexplained away to a miscommunication (...)"The sad but highly amusing thing is that this might even be true! Which is yet another reason to protect Strine and Rambow (and "our" money so many of us donated!) from themselves, and remove the counterproductive MAAM statement from the AVSIM site. As a writer, editor and publisher with close to four decades experience, I find it incomprehensible that AVSIM published Strine's statement, which is worded in such a way that it does MAAM more harm than good, and will continue to do so as long as it stays up.As I said before: they're yelling, shouting, accusing, insulting and screaming like banshees, while in comparison Roy Chaffin behaves with the laudable restraint of an English country gentleman (grin)! Jaap Verduijn.

[Guest WorkingStiff]

Hmmm.....As a lurker in this thread I have to wonder whether you have some sort of agenda. Why is this subject consuming you?

[Guest jaapverduijn]

Greetings Adamson!"(...) Roy started some of the name calling in statements issued withhis B-25 release (...)"Sure, I've read that. But it's on a totally different level from accusingly screaming "Thief! Thief! Thief!" across the ocean so loudly that I can hear it in my peaceful little cottage in my country town of Ede. The writings of Chaffin would, if directed against me, make me shrug my shoulders. The accusations and choice of words of Strine though, would prompt me to break open the faithful 12-gauge, and start looking for the shells (wide and wicked grin)!"(...) looks like opinions seem to be which side ofthe "pond" we're on (...)"Naaaah... I dislike Pommies just as much as I dislike Yanks (evil grin)!And yes... I'm still keeping both Mitchells too! Jaap Verduijn.

[Guest jaapverduijn]

Not consuming, but amusing. I find it rather entertaining (although sad...) to see how people whom I once respected put so much energy into digging their own grave.As for my "agenda": that is having the Strine statement removed from AVSIM, in order to prevent it from being further instrumental in stirring up things, and backfiring against MAAM. Jaap Verduijn.

[Sonar5 3]

You said:"Sonar - tell that guy on the politics forum he's full of it - Rob Young did the MAAM flight model and you're gonna be hard pressed to find someone who'll say that he doesn't make some of the absolute best FDE's out there"Hi Tabs,While I will not repost your words, you are certainly invited to register for FREE and tell him yourself. :-)http://pub207.ezboard.com/fpoliticsgivemel...topicID=5.topicI think Rob does create some of the finest flying characteristics in this industry.I can't comment on the maam, because I don't own it (yet), that is. I am considering purchasing it, but I have not made up my mind. In this entire hobby, I have bought two payware commercial add-ons. The FSD Commander, and the Dreamfleet Cessna Cardinal. I don't part easily with my cash, but I may buy it just for comparison purposes.Once I see the rebuttal, I will make up my mind. Maybe maam will put it on sale, considering all the free advertising they are getting for their payware product. ;-)Anyway, thanks for the comment.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/sigban.jpg.Politics - Give Me Liberty or Give Me Deathhttp://pub207.ezboard.com/bpoliticsgivemel...tyorgivemedeath.Contribute to the Richard Harvey Scholarship Fund.http://www.avsim.com/pages/scholarship.shtml

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Tom,I actually have the entire page saved from the original thread that was deleted and I ahve it on my Hard Drive from post #1 until post #49.It is certainly not all of the posts, but quite a few, and I could shoot you a copy if you like.Let me know.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/sigban.jpg.Politics - Give Me Liberty or Give Me Deathhttp://pub207.ezboard.com/bpoliticsgivemel...tyorgivemedeath.Contribute to the Richard Harvey Scholarship Fund.http://www.avsim.com/pages/scholarship.shtml

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

Sure Joe, please do. You know where to find me. :)Nice forums by the by... Thanks for helping with the Scholarship drive. I will put your site up in the sponsors link section as soon as I can.