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Tom Allensworth

What happened to the MAAM announcement post?

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Did it get deleted?

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Looks like it's gone Fred, and I have to say, that's probably a good thing.

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"Looks like it's gone Fred, and I have to say, that's probably a good thing."Roger that. Like any ugly divorce, this is a private matter between the principal parties... and one best resolved between them.All anybody will see in a public forum is arrow slinging, posturing, finger pointing, confecture, and inuendo.

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I agree, good thing. Ugly, ugly business that I regret posting in.

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I do not regret the questions I asked, and I am happy I did not pass judgement either.I am continuing the conversation here:http://pub207.ezboard.com/fpoliticsgivemel...topicID=5.topicI do understand why it may have been removed, since there were some personal attacks in there, IMHO.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/sigban.jpg.Politics - Give Me Liberty or Give Me Deathhttp://pub207.ezboard.com/bpoliticsgivemel...tyorgivemedeath

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My question is why was it even started. Wasn't the front page headline enough?Todd

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I think it shouldn't of even been started with the thing on the front page. I support MAAM in this but their problem with RCS is their problem, not ours.

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Joe,You were a level head, and a good voice to listen to in that thread. You have made me think, and I regret passing judgement so fast.

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Hi Fred,One of the hardest things to do is reflect on what one said, and then take responsibility for what you wrote.You should be commended for your regret. It takes integrity to state what you did, and then post that regret.Happy to have helped,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/sigban.jpg.Politics - Give Me Liberty or Give Me Deathhttp://pub207.ezboard.com/bpoliticsgivemel...tyorgivemedeath.Contribute to the Richard Harvey Scholarship Fund.http://www.avsim.com/pages/scholarship.shtml

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Sonar - tell that guy on the politics forum he's full of it - Rob Young did the MAAM flight model and you're gonna be hard pressed to find someone who'll say that he doesn't make some of the absolute best FDE's out there (The SF.260 and the 172SP are freaking brilliant!) As if anyone (save for the few that own one) should be commenting on the realism of a B-25 FDE anyway!

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>Sonar - tell that guy on the politics forum he's full of it ->Rob Young did the MAAM flight model and you're gonna be hard>pressed to find someone who'll say that he doesn't make some>of the absolute best FDE's out there (The SF.260 and the 172SP>are freaking brilliant!) As if anyone (save for the few that>own one) should be commenting on the realism of a B-25 FDE>anyway!I agree with you. I've flown both simulated B-25's, and don't see or "feel" what this writer is talking about. Both models are different, but feel like good and controlled simulations of a medium size twin engine bomber.Neither are able to immediately raise their noses like the B-25's did in the movie ---- "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo", when the yokes are pulled full back and brakes released. They were practicing on a runway ....... not the aircraft carrier.L.Adamson

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Well, it was fun while it lasted. As I posted in the snuffed thread: the way MAAM and AVSIM handled the issue here was in very bad taste, but... having a nasty character I thoroughly ENJOY bad taste! So I will sorely miss our very own soap, and sadly in vain will I look for the next instalment...The damage AVSIM did to MAAM by opening and maintaining the thread in question must be considerable. With friends like AVSIM, it seems MAAM doesn't need enemies anymore. Oh, well... in the long run they came to their sense. Jaap Verduijn.

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I second that. Ironic that the thread was started by a senior moderator, then had to be deleted. A little more common sense should have prevailed here.

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Yeah... unless it was deliberate (evil grin)! Tom Allensworth started a thread that made people realize that in this affair Roy Chaffin behaved like a (wouldya believe it?!) rather well-mannered gentleman, while the MAAM crowd distinguished themselves as a yelling, accusing, insulting, screaming bunch of banshees. Where I live (the Netherlands) the MAAM statement and Bill Rambow's (sorry Bill!) various comments towards RCS, might put him in the dock for alleged libel pretty quick. I don't know how it's legally arranged in the United States and the United Kingdom, the countries where MAAM and RCS are located, but if it's even remotely like "here", AVSIM might have made a major contribution to the possible financial and reputational ruin of MAAM. I believe Tom Allensworth to be an intelligent man, so I do NOT believe for a single moment that he did this "by accident" or from lack of common sense. He's been around long enough to know what you can and what you can't publish without the risk of severe repercussions, so initiating the thread in question and letting it run on for a long time, quite likely was a deliberate decision. Jaap Verduijn.

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I am inclined to agree with you. If there was a real issue with copyright breach, it should have been dealt with through appropriate legal procedures. What has actually happened was petty mud-slinging and name calling, disgraceful behaviour on BOTH sides of the arguement.

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By publishing and drawing attention to the article by Russ Strine, AVSIM has complicated the issue enormously. Again I am speaking from a Dutch point of view, while in the States the situation might be quite different. Right "here" though, after Strine/Allensworth published the allegations in the "screaming banshee" document on AVSIM, there would be a serious chance no lawyer would accept the case anymore, and if some lawyer still did, there would be a serious chance that it would be immediately flung out of court. As for Russ Strine and the MAAM crew, the only reason I can think of why he published his document instead of making it a court issue (after all, in his document he accuses RCS of THEFT), is that he suspects MAAM doesn't have a legal leg to stand on and would either be laughed out of court, or loose the case. What happened instead, is not the dealing with a legal issue in a legal way, but the mobilizing of a lynch mob which, as it seems, is backfiring against MAAM in a major way.AVSIM has, for reasons only Tom Allensworth knows, heartily collaborated on pointing MAAM in the direction of possible financial, legal and reputational ruin, which makes me repeat my earlier statement that with friends like AVSIM one doesn't need enemies.Speaking from decades of writing, editing and publishing experience, I am of the opinion that AVSIM should have protected Russ Strine and Bill Rambow against themselves by refusing to publish the MAAM statement. Of course AVSIM could nor can prevent MAAM from publishing their (possibly libellous) statement elsewhere, but at least AVSIM should have refrained from actually helping Strine and Rambow dig their own graves. Jaap Verduijn.

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No great conspiracy here folks. We were wondering what happened to it too. It was just pointed out to me by the tech staff that fumble fingers (me) apparently deleted the post (according to the logs). I guess I tried to delete a single message and hit the wrong delete key. Mea culpa folks.

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>As for Russ Strine and the MAAM crew, the only reason I can think >of why he published his document instead of making it a court issue >(after all, in his document he accuses RCS of THEFT), is that he >suspects MAAM doesn't have a legal leg to stand on and would either >be laughed out of court, or loose the case. What happened instead, >is not the dealing with a legal issue in a legal way, but the >mobilizing of a lynch mob which, as it seems, is backfiring against >MAAM in a major way.Thats unlikely. MAAM must think they have overwhelming evidence, else they would be libelous. You don't make these kind of direct accusations unless you believe you have a lot to back it up with.Regards.Ernie.

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Tom, we all hit the wrong button every now and then (grin)! Yet I'm quite happy that the thread in question is gone, for it was beginning to mightily backfire against MAAM. So does, as I mentioned before, Russ Strine's own statement that started all this hullabaloo. If I were you (which I ain't) I would seriously consider protecting Russ Strine, Bill Rambow and MAAM against themselves by removing said statement, which in its published version will mainly serve to put the authors into deep manure, resulting in them having to spend the money we all donated for the R4D and for Briefing Time on legal fees instead of on Pratt&Whithey engines. Jaap Verduijn.

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Jaap,Roy is in England. MAAM is in the USA. International court cases don't happen unless you have several million dollars to spend bringing suit. If you, as a European, default on some payments to a relatively small US company, the US company will say some very rude words to you, possibly file a report to the state or federal authorities... but, until you set foot in the USA, they don't have any jurisdiction.MAAM, being a voluntary organization, most likely does not have either the will or the funds to spare in mounting a full-blown legal challenge.While I will admit that Roy Chaffin has not exactly been on my Christmas card list for quite a while, I had taken it as read that he would have been gentlemanly enough to eschew any sort of copyright infringement. For one who has publicly upheld a good reputation, and one who has fiercely protected his own works in the past, this apparent volte-face is saddening to me at the very least. He is a talented designer who, it seems, has made a very significant error of judgement on this issue. His original work on the R-4D and various other aircraft indicates that Roy Chaffin is a fine craftsman capable of producing top quality resources for our hobby -- to look beneath the surface and find this black mark appearing by his name is nothing short of awful.It is not outside the realms of possibility that this may be explained away to a miscommunication, but I must say that I find this conclusion deeply improbable.Regards,--M

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Greetings Ernie!"(...) MAAM must think they have overwhelming evidence, else they would be libelous (...)"I fear they are. Mind, I am NOT sure, especially since this a US law issue and not a Dutch one, but my knowledge of (Dutch) jurisprudence gives me a very uneasy feeling about Russ Strine's publication. The choice of words is such that, even if their CONTENT is true, their WORDING might still be libellous. In such situations not only WHAT you see can be sued, but also HOW you say it. I fear that Strine and Rambow have compiled the document from a purely technical point of view, with total disregard for its legal aspects. And that's dumb. If you accuse a person of criminal acts, you should take care to word your accusation in such a way that it can pass legal muster. As for you thinking MAAM has overwhelming evidence... well, I don't think it looks like that. If you have good and sound evidence, you keep your trap shut and make use of it in the legal confines of a court, instead of making it public by hollering it off the rooftops in a possibly libellous way. "(...) You don't make these kind of direct accusations unless you believe you have a lot to back it up with (...)"Even if they HAVE a lot to back their accusations up, they blew there case prematurely in a major way by raising the public stink they did. Courts of law tend to frown upon people who fight and shoot their mouths off in the media about any case that might yet come to court. MAAM has made it very hard for themselves to now get a decent court case on the alleged copyright and "theft" matters, while on the other hand they have opened up themselves to a mighty big libel suit if Roy Chaffin gets in a bad mood by all the names he has been called.Only because I see the idiotic evidence in front of me, I find it possible to believe that people can be so utterly, totally and incredibly stupid as Rambow and Strine have shown themselves to be in this issue. I believe it because I see it, but I still find it totally incomprehensible that people who ought to know better, dig their own graves with such an enormous dedication and energy.Jaap Verduijn.

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Three things here.....Roy started some of the name calling in statements issued with his B-25 release, which is included with the download. It was not in a "gentleman" fashion, as mentioned by some.And secondly, there is not enough "funds" associated with this whole mess to end up with some "mighty court case". It's still "toy" airplanes and little real cash; not to mention the Atlantic Ocean in between!Third ---------- looks like opinions seem to be which side of the "pond" we're on. L.Adamson --- still keeping both of them

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Greetings Matt!"(...) It is not outside the realms of possibility that this may beexplained away to a miscommunication (...)"The sad but highly amusing thing is that this might even be true! Which is yet another reason to protect Strine and Rambow (and "our" money so many of us donated!) from themselves, and remove the counterproductive MAAM statement from the AVSIM site. As a writer, editor and publisher with close to four decades experience, I find it incomprehensible that AVSIM published Strine's statement, which is worded in such a way that it does MAAM more harm than good, and will continue to do so as long as it stays up.As I said before: they're yelling, shouting, accusing, insulting and screaming like banshees, while in comparison Roy Chaffin behaves with the laudable restraint of an English country gentleman (grin)! Jaap Verduijn.

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Hmmm.....As a lurker in this thread I have to wonder whether you have some sort of agenda. Why is this subject consuming you?

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