A while back some guys did some work on creating the data to allow us to do the RNP approaches into NZQN - quite a task as the NGX at the moment isnt fully capable of flying many RNP procudres, but also as these particular plates are not completly publicly published as they are only allowed to be flown by certain operators.

 

I have this data, but its now completley out of date as NZQN have radically changed all of there procedures, including SIDS and STARS, and introduced new GNSS approaches into NZQN.

 

Although they still appear in the AIP at present - these NOTAMS

 

 

B5780/12 NOTAMN

Q) NZZC/QPIAW/I/NBO/A/000/999/4501S16844E005

A) NZQN B) 1302061100 C) PERM

E) REF AIP NZQN AD 2-45.1

QUEENSTOWN RNAV (RNP) Z RWY 05:

PUBLISHED IFR APCH PROCEDURE COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN

 

REF AIP NZQN AD 2-45.2

QUEENSTOWN RNAV (RNP) Z RWY 23:

PUBLISHED IFR APCH PROCEDURE COMPLETELY WITHDRAWN

 

 

Show that the RNP Z approaches are now withdrawn, however there is still a RNP Y.

 

The NAVDATA from Aersoft contains the newer sids and stars (well most of them - again missing some of the RNP procedures) but these are not too difficult to create as the points have track adn distance marked on the charts - but may need some tweaking still due to the RNP nature of these points. I have added these myself to the navdata now.

 

When it comes to the new GNSS and the VOR approaches and the RNP Y approach Im looking at trying to add these also as there probably enough data on the charts this time to create them and then do some tweaking to help build in the RNP paths better.

 

However a little help please on understanding the charts with refrence to the visual circuits that are contained on these charts.

 

Lets say take the VOR/DME B approach the latter part of the approach tracks inbound to the QN vor with a MAPT at 2DME QN with the MAPT to have you fly off from the QN on a radial to AFTON. However there is included on the chart a Visual circuit published. Flying this approach are you expected to follow the inbound radial to the QN and aslong as you are visual then fly the orbiting right visual circuit pattern to land on 23(or even in fact 05 by flying the other way) or as you track down the inbound radial you turn direct for the runway when visual? or even a combination here that you can fly the VOR B regardless of landing runway, but fly straight in if on 23, but do the visual circuit if landing 05 or should the visual circuit be flown in both cases?

 

This circuit(or version) of exits on the GNSS appraoches also, and so again is this the case of flying manually the visual circuit or is it the intention that the last RNP point is from where you would then turn direct to the runway?

 

Link to the VOR B http://www.aip.net.nz/pdf/NZQN_43.1_43.2.pdf

Link to the AIP for QNZN http://www.aip.net.nz/NavWalk.aspx?section=CHARTS&tree=Queenstown

VOR/DME approaches are visual approachs "with aids". That said, I think you have confused the two plans. On VOR B, AFTON is your escape route. That is where you go when things go wrong so you can gather your thoughts and make a new plan.

 

If you want to land using VOR B, then make your way to the QN VOR, and from there enter a hold at EKVOX at 10,000ft or more. When ready to land, (and you know which runway), leave the EKVOX hold at 8,500 on a heading of 223 towards QN. At DME12, turn south and circle at DME12. When you pass QN radial 61, you can descend to no lower then 7100. When you pass radial 70, turn onto heading 260 towards the QN VOR. If you dont have solid visuals by the time you reach 2DME, abort and head off to AFTON while you come up with a new plan. If you are happy with your visuals, (remembering that you will be turning away from the runway if going for 35, and heading out over the headland and the lake if you are going for 05.) then stabilise at no lower then 4270ft (use 4500 or even 5000 for convinence) and as you cross the QN VOR, circle away to begin your visual line up.

The procedures should be flown as published.

 

The vor/dme b procedure is for 05/23 only. You mustn't deviate from the procedure without prior consent from atc or for collision avoidance even if you're visual. Generally you could probably ask for a straight in approach to 23 in this case, it depends and isn't recommended, generally.

 

Mike McKenna.

Hi James

 

As you are aware there has been a complete 'makeover' of the procedures at ZQN.

 

Since the relative data has been made available I have produced all the new procedures at ZQN including the RNP approaches and departures.

 

Yes it is cumbersome attempting to produce ARINC type procedures with the current PMDG code. The ND looks very busy with all the User created Waypoints to keep the NGX on track with RF parts of the procedure. Glad you are giving it a shot.

 

I will soon publish the new ZQN procedures at VAPAP (http://www.vapap.com/), but if you would like to have a look at what I have done, happy to send you the NZQN file. Just PM me with your email address.

 

Cheers

 

Jock McIntyre

Melbourne, Australia

Jock - thankyou PM sent

 

Others

 

I think you are confused at what I am asking, I understand the procedure and flying the VOR approach and constraints. What I am questioning is say on a normal VOR approach into an airfield it would track you inbound on a radial that still likely offset from the runway, however at or before reaching the MAPT you would become visual with the runway and normally just turn direct for it and land visually at that point, this often only a slight direction change to be lined up with runway (or even in fact the radial would intercept the centreline at some point) The VOR approach would also be associated with one runway(although visual circle to land still a possibilit)

 

However with this procedure is it expected that on becoming visual as you fly inbound on the 260 radial you again just adjust your track to then be lined up with the runway and land or that you would aslong as visual by the MAPT at 2dme continue to the QN VOR and perform the visual right turn back to align with the runway? If landing on 05 would you still fly this approach or now the VOR C? and if you are able to still use this approach then I take it you then continue to the QN vor and perform the visual pattern to land on 05.

 

I totally understand that if not visual by the MAPT then you follow the MAP and in the case of the B procedure then you would continue to the QN and turn for AFTON. My question is, that flying the procedure then at MAPT when im visual am I still required to perform the orbit, or can I just turn left and put it down on the runway? and/or is the visual circle only used if using the B procedure to land on 05 or the C procedure to land on 23? The same applies to the GNSS approaches although the visual pattern there is slightly different after the MAPT.

No. You can't turn to align with 23. So you'd be expected to fly to QN, then the circuit (or orbit, as you describe it).

 

Exception:

- you ask for a straight in approach, and atc permits. Then you can peel off the procedure at a point where you can fly straight to the runway.

 

Generally, its the same principal for most other approaches - you must fly the published procedure even if you're visual and are aligned with the runway (or are close to being aligned with the runway).

 

Generally, just because you are visual in vmc during an ifr flight, doesn't mean you can go flying anywhere you want.

 

I suggest you read the ersa to get a better understanding.

 

Mike.

OK, I think I get what your asking. I suspect that if you were on VOR B in a cessna and asked ATC nicely, the might let you approach directly from MAPT, but in anything much bigger, you are trying to make too sharp a turn in too tight a space to be safe. You might feel good about it, but any surviving passengers would sue ATC for letting you take the risk if it was unnecessary.

 

The choice between VOR B and VOR C really has nothing to do with the pilot. Both approachs put you in a position where you can land safely on either end of the runway so long as you follow the rules, so the decision about which one you should use is made by ATC in the way that allows them to manage expected traffic in a safe and efficient manner. For example, if they were expecting scheduled flight ANZ621 at 10:01, they they could assign it VOR B even before it left Christchurch, and put all the light 'casual' traffic on VOR C. Then, when the tourist C206 from Milford Sound that was due at 9:45 reports it is running 20 minutes late because some sight seer dropped their camera, it can then be told to hold at AFTON until their way is clear, while the scheduled flight lands exactly on time.

OK, I think I get what your asking. I suspect that if you were on VOR B in a cessna and asked ATC nicely, the might let you approach directly from MAPT, but in anything much bigger, you are trying to make too sharp a turn in too tight a space to be safe. You might feel good about it, but any surviving passengers would sue ATC for letting you take the risk if it was unnecessary.

No. It clearly states on the chart "Procedure does not meet ICAO PAN OPS for circling criteria. ALL aircraft should expect to be cleared via the visual circle pattern". This pattern is a figure 8 pattern which can be seen on AIP chart NZQN AD2 - 51.3 which was mentioned by someone in a previous post. That being said, even if you were a VFR aircraft not even contemplating a approach procedure, the circuit set out is the figure and thats what you do. You don't just complete a normal circuit because you will find yourself being a victim of CFIT.

+1 James.

 

correcting my previous suggestion *nz aip.

 

Fly the procedure as promulgated.

 

Mike.

Ok think you still confused by what I was asking and what my understanding is, but you have now answered the question.

 

The visual circuit is part of the procedure for all of the newer approaches into NZQN, the b and c are for both runways and would be allocated based on initial arrival routing.

 

 

Thanks for raising the question James. I learnt quite a lot about the non-precision approaches and rules in nz/zqn given that RNP is the norm for qantas into qn.

 

I hope you truly got your answer, because it was a hell of a thing to try and answer given the uniqueness of 1. Queenstown 2. Variance from pans ops 3. Circling approach differences.

 

Mike.

+1 James.

 

correcting my previous suggestion *nz aip.

 

Fly the procedure as promulgated.

 

Mike.

 

Yes the Australian rules be not much use in NZ!

 

Confusion existed in that although it said to fly the visual circuit...it says or as directed by ATC.

 

 

The question wasn't about not flying the procedure as published, but actually what is actually being published

 

4.23.9 At Queenstown the current published non-precision approach procedures are designed to enable aircraft to establish sufficient visual references for transition from the instrument flight procedure to a visual circuit. These approaches do not utilise the standard circling areas or standard circling manoeuvring.

4.23.10 ATC approach clearance will include instructions for manoeuvring once visual. Aircraft can expect to be cleared to join the visual circuit as promulgated in AIPNZ Queenstown Aerodrome (3) page (NZQN AD 2-51.3).

4.23.11 All aircraft using any of the published non-precision approaches are expected to inform Queenstown ATC when they establish visual reference prior to reaching the missed approach point (MAPt). Aircraft may also request a visual approach

 

As you say a very unique place, with unique rules and approaches, but an excellent place to fly into!

 

Thanks to everyone's help, off to go try out the new procedure file!