Very easy way to remove a virtual cockpit- A Rebuttal

[boris4356 4]

I am the original poster of this previous thread, and I have been away from the forums for a few days, so I never got a chance to respond to the original before it degenerated into a flame war. I am perplexed and dismayed at some of the responses my posting of simple information elicited. I am opening this new thread to clarify my position, as it would get lost in the original post. The question of "How do I remove a virtual cockpit" comes up time and again on a multitude of forums. Each and every person who asks this question have their own reasons for wanting to remove the VC. We all like to fly FS9 in different ways, so as far as I am concerned, this is a valid question that needs to be answered. As much as some of you would like, it will never go away. I am not condoning hacking in the true sense of the word. No one is trying to harm someone else here, or to profit from someone elses hard work. They are just customizing FS9 to meet their own needs. What we do with a product after we purchase it, or had it given to us, is our own business. As long as our creations never leave our own computer, there is no harm done. Removing a VC is no different then any of the other customizations being done in FS9. Never once did I express that I hated Virtual Cockpits. Some people just like to twist things around in order to open the age old debate, 2D vs 3D. As a matter of fact, there was a time when I would only fly planes with virtual cockpits. I purchased the MAAM B-25 Briefing time, and flew from the VC for many hours. There were times when I couldn

[Guest danowat]

Just to put another spin on this.I am now currently developing a Shorts Skyvan model for FS2004, you can see some shots here > http://www.classic-sky.co.uk/cbfsim/viewtopic.php?t=723I wish to develop a VC for this model, will I be able to match the quality supplied by Milton and all the others? I doubt it, so in my mind, is there any point me spending hours and hours modelling a VC just so people can tear it out?Models are not meant to be edited by just anyone, they take thousands of hours to develop, and many people do it for free, I think I would feel aggreived if someone just by press a few keys tore out a 100 hours work in 3 secs.I really can't see the issue of having to skip 1 view that you don't like, doing that just doesnt seem to be a problem for me.I also wonder what else can be done to a model via a hex editor, and where else this could lead in the future.Dan.

[boris4356 4]

The simple solution is to develop two versions of your aircraft, one with and one without the virtual cockpit, like Milton does. This way you give people a choice. I don't think Milton gets offended if someone decides to download the no VC version of his aircraft, because just as many, if not more download his VC version, making all of his hard work on the VC justified. Wouldn't you want everyone to try your aircraft after all the hard work you put into it? If you only offer one choice that includes a VC, then you will either attract only the people who prefer VC's, and the other people will pass on it, or you will have people trying to remove the VC if they like your plane. Either way, if they like your plane, and continue to fly it, even though they have removed the VC, then you still have accomplished something. Bill

[Guest daveg4otu]

I agree entirely with Bill - if the modification is for your own use then I can see no harm in it.If you start down the road of discouraging (how you enforce is another matter)software mods - where do you stop.I'm certain that the majority of the readers of this forum have at some time or other modified the basic Flight Sim files - either replacement textures, changing the.cfg file or many other things.Equally certain - many have made mods to addons- either scenery or aircraft- maybe only small things like adding a gauge to the panel , air file mods - but changes nonetheless. If you somehow ban altering an addon then really you should be treating any other software the same way - this is neither pratical, possible or desirable.I don't see this discussion as a 2D vs VC cockpit argument - more it really is all about the rights (or otherwise) of a user to alter software ( freeware or payware of any kind) for personal useAs I said in the original thread- if you buy (or are given) any item (not just PC software) where does it say that you can't modify it to suit your own purpose. As long as you don't try to pass the original work of as your own and start selling the modded item you aren't usurping the original author/builders work , rights or - if applicable ,profits.I can understand how maybe the original writer (in the case of software) may think - "well I spent 100 hours making that VC and now they don't like it"- but you can never satisfy everyone no matter how hard you try. Proof of the pudding is in the eating- if thousands of people download and use your fantastic new model of the XXX-99 (or whatever) then at least you must be doing something right - they may not all want all of it- but does that really matter so much.I say all the above from my point of view as a scenery creator (correction - a comparatively new scenery creator)- So far I 've been lucky - most users I've heard from seem to like my attempts at scenery, but if they want to alter it in anyway -that's up to them. I'm just flattered that they bother to download it and try it out .It would be nice if this discussion can continue in a civilized manner.Dave

[Guest LLgaz]

So Dan, what you are saying is that although you know that there are people that don't like VCs or whose computers are too slow to accomodate them, should accept them anyway, because you said so?You spent 100 hours working on it.....great. Rest assured that there are going to be a large percentage of people that will like it and always use it and won't remove it. Analysis of threads here suggest that there is at least a 50/50 split, or maybe even more people in favor of VCs that not. So 1000 people download your airplane, and 450 remove the VC. Even though 550 enjoys the VC and doesn't remove it, your 100hours of work has been for nothing?I suspect that the problem you are having is the fact that people can modify the aircraft, not the fact that the VC can be removed.But, you have to realise that the hardcore FS community, us, was born for exactly this purpose. Modification of FS and everything FS related. Its done to the original product, MSFS. The development team could just as easily say .....we spent tens of thousands of hours developing the mesh terrain so its not right that it should be modified. We spent tens thousands of hours developing a cessna, or a 747 for these people to fly. Its not right that they should be modified or just cast aside while someone uses our template and makes another one. Or modifies the .air files, etc.And the MSFS team has a bigger problem than you do. Many of the modifications and additions made to their product.....the product that they spent thousands of hours working on, many of these modifications are sold to the public by the modifiers without one red cent going back to Microsoft. But Microsoft knows that its the spirit of the community to make things better, or at least modify to your taste. So they don't even worry about modders.At least you don't have that problem. No one is going to suddenly start modifying your airplane and sell it. All a few people are going to do is modify it for their own use. So if you feel the need to not do a VC because a small percentage of people who download it will remove the VC then its your choice. Just one note.......if it takes hundred of hours to produce a VC then it also means that a non-vc version can be very easily done and released. That would make it unnecessary for people to modify addon by removing the VC.BTW, if, for example, someone who flies your addon in real life, decides to modify the aircraft.cfg or the .air file to make it more realistic, are you going to complain that you spent hundreds of hours working on these files so they shouldn't be modified? Is someone going to suddenly modify your .air file and sell your aircraft with modified .air file as their own creation? Also, if people are going to suddenly start selling freeware / payware as thier own, what's to stop them from doing it without modifying it in the first place? How many cases of people modifying and selling freeware as their own have we actually seen here? Likewise for Payware?The only cases I know of is a handful of people who, from time to time will package a bunch of freeware with installers on a CD and sell it on Ebay. How widespread is that? Think about these points. Don't get hot under the collar because a few people decide to remove your VC.

[Guest danowat]

People can do what they want to addons on their own personal systems, very true,and I, and noone else can stop them.I think the issue for me comes in is the "modification" part.In my mind modifying something is to change it to make it "better", yes I know the term of what is better is in the eye of the individual, but a few clicks in a hex editor is, to my mind, not a good modification.I still don't understand the need to remove "bad" VC's altogether, it is so simple to just skip past them with the view controls.If I ever release my plane, and someone spent 100 hours making more realistic FD's I would be more than happy for them to do it, release it, whatever, likewise, if there was any portion of my model or textures or anything, I would again be more than happy for them to make the changes.Tearing out a VC using a hex editor is something my 7 year old daughter could do, and requires zero skill.If you don't like the VC's, start up Gmax, FSDS whatever and try making one for yourself, I think that after you have spent 100 hours modelling a VC you may understand why developers get "hot under the collar" when someone hacks their models about.This disscusion will always have 2 sides to it, and I don't think the 2 sides will ever see eye to eye on it.Dan.

[Wolfko 0]

>Models are not meant to be edited by just anyone, they take>thousands of hours to develop, and many people do it for free,>I think I would feel aggreived if someone just by press a few>keys tore out a 100 hours work in 3 secs.Dan, above would mean, that you should not be allowed to tweak anything you possess, which was created by somebody else. What's about your car (assuming you have one). Are you allowed to tweak its performance, to equip it with other tyres (4WD), to kick the default radio out, to exchange the board computer, to paint it in another colour etc.?Or what's about your PC? Are you allowed to tweak it?BTW it is a proven fact that complex VCs bring down performance also in 2D mode.I love good VCs and my system is good enough to handle them all, but they can be a burdon for somebody with slower systems. Should these people dispense with a good model, just because the VC brings down performance also in 2D mode?Wolfgang

[Guest danowat]

Yeah, I understand that.How does this hex edit wieght up against the hex edits need to circumvent copy protection on PC games?.Would AVSIM or anyone allow instructions to remove the copy protection via a hex edit?, because essetially it is the same thing, after all, you are only going to use it on your system arent you?, its only a modification for your system, so by your reckoning its is ok to do?.Maybe its not just the "modification" itself, but the ease at which someones hard work can be undone.Dan.

[jeffyen 0]

I think it's rather unfortunate/unnecessary to feel bad about this sort of thing. When people 'hack' the model, it's understandable to be unhappy because it might been 'rejection'. But it doesn't really have to be this way...The value of the work shouldn't be decreased in any way by people hacking it; it merely means that the customer prefers something else, and this doesn't lessen the value of the original hard work.I think this is related to the open source and proprietary debate. The former is thrilled when others takes apart their work to make it fit individual needs; the latter is less attracted to this proposition. There's nothing wrong with either side... :)

[Guest odog]

I think the real point is STILL being missed. Generally people who oppose this issue could care less whether you like or dislike VCs or if you want or DONT want a VC in your plane. ITS THE TOOLS that allow you to do this!what is to keep someone from stealing bits of milton's or MAAM's VC and making a payware model from it?I tell you how, by not talking about it.I have no problem with you, or anyone who does this, but this forum is not the place to talk about how great it is to have a tool to disassemble peoples hard work.its not personal... yes these tools will always exist, but to simplify it for the GP is just agrivating.email your buds, rip out what you dont like... just kindly keep it out of here.NHFjoe

[Guest Ken_Salter]

Instructions on removing the copy protection would never be allowed. AVSim does not allow any posts on getting around security measures, no matter whose software it is.Hex editing a model is not the same as getting around copy protection, in my view.I suppose a solution would be to upload a EULA with your software that specifically forbids modification to any files. Then, if someone did post how to modify your file, I could remove the post. Also, any uploads of modified files would definitely not be allowed.Please note that the above paragraph is me, Ken Salter, thinking alound and not a stated policy of AVSim.com.

[boshar 6]

Hello Bill,I want to thank you for bringing this VC removal method to my attention. I will use this method to remove all VC's from virtually all aircraft on my laptop.The reason why I will do this is simple. My laptop has limited (64 MB) graphics memory. Removing the VC will help enormously in increasing FPS / smooth flying. I also convert all textures of my aircraft to DXT3 with the same purpose.I will still use my Desktop machine to enjoy the VC view. That machine (128 MB texture mem) can handle all VC's and highend textures without (much) stutters. The VC view coupled with active camera is something I wouldn't want to miss.So you see I have a good reason to remove the VC (I don't want a stuttering slide show I want a believable flying experience). I don't have to nag developers for a VC free version either I can adjust the full package I already use on my desktop.I don't understand all the negative feelings on this subject. Is making a repaint of an existing aircraft a sign that the paint on the original sucks? Is a redesigned or aliased 2D panel a rejection of the original makers panel.If any freeware maker has a problem with me removing the VC for the purpose of enjoying their aircaft please inform me. I will then remove the aircraft from my laptop and only fly it on my desktop machine. I think it would be a shame because lately I only find the time to do quick flights on the laptop.

[Guest CargoMun]

Its well and truely beyond me how this can even be a problem to anyone. The whole sim community is already floody with tweaks, performance tips, cfg edits, air file edits even payware panel mergers with freeware.Heck there's a whole forum just for that on this site alone!@ odog; If people really wanted to "rip off" a VC and use it for payware purposes, they could do it anyway becos they would know the tricks of the trade in the first place I am sure.I seriously object to this trick beeing made into something criminal and the users who would do this for their own personal use also criminalized.I agree with Ken, this has NOTHING to do with cracking a program or exe file in software at all.

[Guest dogknot]

MS Flight Simulator General Discussion ForumA general discussion forum for all things related to the MS Flight Simulator series. The use of the hex editor on a VC came out back when VC's were still in their infancy. They were at best, lousy. 2D views were still the biggest thing going. A look to the right coupled the mushed VC "right view" with the 2D right view. Irritating at best. Temporary fixes were offered by the flightsim community. One being, projecting your view outside of the VC view then using the 2D view. The hex edit tip came along and permanently removed the VC. Simple and effective. It was shared on these very forums. I have used it in the above case. I shared it at that time with my fellow flightsimmers, on these forums, for those simmers that may have missed the original postings. The risk always existed that a "bad-man" may use the information for deeds of "evil". I, for one, cannot live my life on "what if" a bad man uses this information. It doesn't matter the shared information nor where it is read, someone will be that dreaded boogieman in the night. Most people are not the boogieman. Shared information propels all things forward and gives birth to new and more wonderful tools. An ancient being discovered a way to manipulate obsidian into a cutting tool. The information was shared and copied by peers. It was improved upon, changed and further manipulated into many other useful tools. Perhaps the first discoverer should have kept the discovery and new tool to himself? Why? Along the way, a bad man used these tools for works of evil. Alas, a nice and sweet thought, but the new obsidian tool did not create the bad man. Before the fancy tool, the bad man just hit you in the head with a round rock.Share your information, some is good, some is not so good. Nevertheless, it moves us all forward, keeps us thinking and maintains our place on this small planet as a "family" of sentient beings.

[boshar 6]

Hello Joe,So you want to keep it a secret that HEX editors exist??? HEX editors have been with us since the first computers. Some versions of MS-DOS included a basic HEX editor.A HEX editor doesn't allow you to rip out a VC and use it on your own model. THe only thing this hack does is change some pointers so FS9 won't look for the VC.Maybe you're thinking of disassemblers. The output of a dissasembler can be used to create new conted based on what you disassembled. There is a lot of talk about utilities that disassemble in the scenery design forum. It enables them to improve MS default terrain but it could just as easely be used to rip someone else his scenery. So maybe thats what you're thinking about.